Can we have a serious conversation for a moment?
I realize this post may be controversial in nature, but that is not my intent.
The other day I was having a conversation with a girl I know. She’s a believer, and she’s gay.
She realizes what the Bible says about homosexuality, and she has decided the gay lifestyle is not for her. It’s a struggle. It’s not like she can flip a switch and all of the sudden “be straight.” She even started blogging about what she’s wrestling with. You can read it here.
As we were talking, she asked…
“Why?”
“Because the Bible says so” isn’t the answer she was looking for. That’s kind of a given.
It’s pretty easy to see why sins like murder or adultery or what-have-you-that’s-evil are sins. It’s because they ultimately involve hurting someone.
Why is being gay a sin?
“Because you’re hurting yourself” isn’t the answer either. When you’re gay, you love, just as straight people love. You want the best for someone.? Someone wants the best for you.
I told her outside of these plug and play answers we kind of just hand out when we discuss these things, I didn’t have an answer. Because I don’t. I can talk circles around hypothetical circumstances but when it comes down to it, I simply don’t have an answer for her. Neither did another friend who was with us.
And maybe sometimes there aren’t answers. We talked about that too.
So I asked her if I could pose this question to you. She said yes. And she’ll be reading these answers, so please keep that in mind as you write your response. If anyone gets out of line I will delete your comment.
So…why is being gay a sin?
It is not. A state of being is not a state of sin. Having feelings for the same sex is not sin. Pretty much everyone should agree with that. Where people will then disagree is whether there is any state of acting on those feelings that is not a sin. Most often people compare having a gay relationship to having an affair. The issue with an affair is the relationship is outside the bounds of marriage. The issue with a gay relationship is that not only is it outside the bounds of marriage, but either marriage is not possible or it is not recognized by the church.
Not really a solution because it brings up more questions. But we do need to make sure the sin is an action not a state of being.
being gay is a sin
Yup, to be gay is a sin alright. God made a woman from man for man. God did not create a man for a man nor a woman for a woman. Ok sons from pops and son on.
Life cannot be created without one male and one female. Any other way is just spitting on Gods plan and face.
If procreation is the ultimate goal of any action and anything else is a sin, any act other than sexual intercourse is a sin, such as typing at a computer or eating. Your argument is a logical fallacy. You are spitting in god’s face.
Besides, we have a separation of Church and State. You have no right to impose your superstitions on my life in any way.
Although it is hard to tell others that they are sinning (after all, aren’t we all sinners), the bible does tell us homosexuality is a sin. Some people say that it must be okay, because it is natural. Sin, however, is also natural. In the bible it says “I was sinful from the time my mother concieved me…” I believe that the devil chooses to tempt us in many ways. For some, this is a problem of drinking, others abuse, and still others, homosexuality. If you felt like killing someone, would that be okay? In the same way, if you have feelings for someone of the same sex, does that make it okay? No one said that following God’s commands would be easy, but I believe the end results make it worth the effort.
The phrase “separation of Church and State” is not in the Constitution of the United States nor in the Declaration of Independence.
Second, no one can “impose” anything on you without your consent. I suppose if you give consent, it wouldn’t be an imposition.
Third, being tempted by attraction to one gender or another is not, in itself, sin. The Bible says that God will always provide a way out away from temptation. The sin is succumbing to the temptation and acting on it.
Why is being gay a sin? Considering the way the male and female bodies are made, it’s not natural. Or, how about this–any sexual relationship outside man/woman marriage is sin? Look, it’s written explicitly in God’s word and implied many other times in the Bible that homosexuality (the actual homosexual act) is sin. There are some things God says–and the Bible addresses this in the Old Testament–we simply have to trust him on. “The mysterious things belong to God.” (Deuteronomy 29:29) Just as we had to trust our parents in many things while we were growing up we also have to trust God in many things. I don’t know that there’s a better answer other than God says not to do that.
I’m not making any comment on whether or not being gay is a sin but you do know that no where in the constitution does it say separation of church and state.
therefore its a sin? that is extremely arrogant. the fact that people question if being gay is a sin proves that it is not a sin; no matter how much religious people want to try to make it. who are you to make decisions for him? if it is, it wouldve specifically said so in the bible.
Isn’t a state of being the same as a state of condition? Sin could a state of condition that is effecting the person’s very being. For example, I was tormented with anger, jealous, and strife majority of my life, prior to me giving my life to Jesus Christ. The sins that I was committing was destroying my very being. I can point fingers other certain party members, but ultimately I let those condition take control over my behavior, and decisions. I should have confessed what I was going through to others, so that healing could have taken place. In the end, God delivered me from that state of being. Sometimes we cannot control what pops in our heads, but we have to rebuke openly those thoughts that are hurtful. In others words, you do not act on those harmful thoughts. If we are dealing with certain struggles, we should cut those sources that are causing us to think, or act out those struggles. If you are angry all the time, maybe you should stop hanging around angry people, and stop watching and listening to angry entertainment.
I believe that being gay is a sin because it goes against Gods natural order of things. God created man then he created eve (a women) to be his help mate. So woman was created for man. Man wasn’t created for man. Homosexuality is a form of perversion. It is a spiritual attack with physical effects. But people don’t feel that they are perverted because what they feel is love. What they can’t see is the evil spirit behind what they feel.People believe they are born gay. I don’t belive that. God loves us so y would he create us to be something he hates. My understanding is that being gay is a sin because it goes against God. Anything that goes against God is a sin. Wether it is smoking, drinking,drugs, etc. God makes it clear how we are to live and if we don’t do it we are in sin. Tell your friend to pray and ask God this question he will answer her on his time. And If she will ask God to show her how to fight it and win. With God there is deliverence. People believe that the voice they hear in their head telling them that they are gay is themselves. But it isn’t it is an evil spirit lieing to them to destroy them. Remember Luke 10;19 For God has giving me the power to tread on serpents and scorpions and power over all the enemy and nothing by any means shall hurt me. Serpents and scorpions come in many forms.But they can’t hurt us as long as we hold on to God. He is a shelter and our strength. Just trust God and hold on to him and he will see u thru everything. We are more than conquerers in Christ wich strenthens us. We all have battles and we all have demons in our closet. I know it is really hard sometimes and u thionk u can’t go on, but with God you can. It is as the saying goes. This too shall pass. I will pray for ur friend. God Bless u.
I cannot believe that someone up here wrote that being gay is against the natural order of things. Now, we have some answers.the problem of being gay is more a problem for people who dont understand it. If you are not gay, you dont have the right to make any judgement, because you dont know. The reason why unconditional love is required all,is perhaps, there are things we are labeling as sin, thats really not. To say that being gay is not natural is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. Its not natural to you. But it is natural to gays. The Bible says a lot of things, and we could have dire consequences by taking certain texts, out of context. Every nation has a gay population. Every one. that means its natural. It occurs in Black and white,Asian, Indian, on and on, woman and men, it even occurs in animals. So by saying its not natural, you are denying the reality of the whole work of creation by viewing only what you think is good and positive based upon your included existence which is of course GOOD. Uh oh, there we have. gays, are a problem for those who are self righteous, self absorbed, and cannot fathom any other way, but one way. There own. God doesnt have a problem with his creation, so you shouldnt either. Go GAY GO!!
i have learned a lot but i still dont get how this is a sin you choice 2 go with a person thats not ur person to go out with i go out wid a gurl n im n luv wid her nd dont now how 2 break up wid her
Oh, this is a very easy question. Homosexuality is NOT a sin. First of all, there not ONE prohibition against woman to woman relationships. NOT ONE. The prohibition is against first, rape. Male rape was a babaric act where one was raped like in Jail. This is the first mention, and the second fall under the category of “Abomination”. Abomination in Hebrew means something quite different than in the English. Toevah, is the word,and in Hebrew, it means a ritual cultural impurity. It is not a sin against God, it is counter-cultural to this particular civilization. Part of this is due to the fact that the Canaanites revered “Homosexuals” and some took part in ritual fertitlity rites. So the prohibition is against the fertitlity rite, not the Homosexual. Also, Homosexuals, called Eunuchs, or saris in the Hebrew language, had high offices in Kingdoms where Kings had concubines. (They didnt have the desire to mess around with the kings women.)
It one did a careful study of leviticus, you would find that this prohibition, is in the laws that are all ritualistic, just like wearing certain fabrics with clothes, and unclean and clean meats. Also rules concerning the menstruation of woman.
homosexuality is not a sin, rather one is more like God than a heterosexual. Containing both aspect male and female of the divine one. Weve heard, Adam and Eve,not Adam and Steve. But in truth, the first human was not male or female. Adam was both. In the Hebrew language, the word for rib, means SIDE. Adam was a creature, adrogynous, hermaphrodite and was split in two. Males and Females appeared at the same time. The Homosexual, or the hermaphrodite, was God first creation. More like who God is. the name for Homosexual in the ancient canaanite language is Kedoshim. Ironicly, the same word that means HOLY in English. Maybe we should spend more time understanding what Holy, and different about Gays and Lesbians. Instead of labeling them a sin. If Gays are a sin, then you telling me, God makes BIG mistakes, cause He made em.
Tough conversation to have online, it can so easily disintegrate into lofty arguments or back ally fighting.
Anyway, I seem to think that there might be better question here, instead of asking why being gay is a sin why aren’t we asking why we accept some sin in our own lives and vehemently point out sin in the lives of others?
Please don’t let that question imply that being gay is a sin, it isn’t. Now, is engaging in same-sex sex a sin? That’s a question to deep to answer in a blog comment.
I’m with chris on this one. Homosexuality and sexuality in general are something far to in depth to cover in a few paragraphs online. Then you put them in the context of morality and religion and it gets even more in-depth.
Basically it’s hard for any human to decide what sins are worse then others. Yes it may be simple to say murder is bad but lying or coveting is alright, but who are we to decide what sins are worse than others.
I’m not trying to make a point that murder and telling small fib are the same because in my eyes and moral judgment they are not but in reality who are we to judge another sins compared to our own and claim them to be the immoral one?
Rockhopper ?s last blog ..bamboo forest cheats
I was to understand that in the eyes of God, No one sin is greater than the other. So if you lie to your wife or mother or employer, your sin is EQUAL to the homosexual relationship in the eyes of God.
With that being said, I don’t think homosexuality is a sin. If two people love and are committed to one another, whether they be a man and a woman, two women, or two men. If there is love between them, that cannot be wrong.
Because I believe in the truth of scripture, I believe homosexuality is a sin, albeit no greater sin than any other.
I’ve often wondered, however, if people who feel a love and attraction to others of the same gender are influenced by society’s definitions, rather than examining the motivation of their emotions. A father who loves and would do anything for a son doesn’t consider himself gay. Neither do two girlfriends who have been closer than sisters since their school days.
A kiss or affectionate touch may be a natural way of expressing love, but there is no mistaking the line between appropriateness and temptation to sin in these situations. Why can that line be crossed sometimes and not others?
The Greek have five different words to say “love” and English only has one. Maybe if we could define the kind of love being experienced we could understand it better. “Eros” (erotic love) manifested in sex before marriage, adulterously during marriage, between people of the same gender seems easy to identify as sinful.
We all adore sweet young children, but the pedophile who is sexually drawn to them has a misplaced attraction that causes him to sin. Is the person who labels himself gay any different? Is acting on the attraction/affection for someone of the same sex and moving on to sexual activity simply inappropriate, sinful behavior that society now condones because it believes in total freedom of choice? “If it feels good, do it” isn’t a sweeping statement to give in to every temptation we face in life.
Obviously I have my own opinion, but I think there are still a lot of unanswered questions that society as a whole and individuals aren’t addressing.
Your comment “I’ve often wondered, however, if people who feel a love and attraction to others of the same gender are influenced by society’s definitions, rather than examining the motivation of their emotions.” is somewhat comical to me because that is exactly the opposite of what really happens. People’s emotions and feelings tell them that being straight isn’t them, and almost every gay man or woman goes through a time when they truly fight to be straight. Many people you believe to be straight are secretly gay. So in reality, people in society are influenced to be straight and not gay.
Yes, there are many types of love, and every person whether gay or straight can agree with that. You definitely don’t love your mother the same way you love your soul mate. The truth is every person has a brain and can figure out how he/she feels, without you telling them that his/her love is being misguided.
I doubt I would get far if I tried to convince you that being straight was a choice you made at some point, or that your love for your husband is wrong and misguided love for a friend. If you look at it in reverse, you realize that gay people aren’t misguided or confused, but being who they are.
And by the way, the Greek had very open bisexual lifestyles thousands of years ago, it wasn’t abnormal to them, why is abnormal to people now?
Romans 3:23, “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” This is the reference we all have for “sins are equal in God’s eyes.” I think we have all really grown up with this thought, but when we look at this scripture and in context we find that some sins do more harm than others, are more consequential than others, and etc. Not necessarily equal, but also not necessarily separate. The fact is, ALL sin separates us from God, and WE ALL fall short of God’s glory. So, no, I wouldn’t equate a murderer’s sin to someone who lies sin. However, each person’s soul and spirit is just as important to God as another. And that lie, or that murder makes us both need God’s forgiveness no matter what.
So many have left great comments on here that I think are in her friend’s best interest and would encourage her and help her deal with her problem she faces, however some of us have also left subtle comments that could be more destructive to her and discourage her. We are to edify one another and be one body, God believes we can do that, and so do I. That includes gays and lesbians. I have someone very close that is going through this struggle, and shows evidence of when he was just a small child and knew he was CLEARLY different. From a biological standpoint this is entirely possible. “So why would God make something he hates?” He doesn’t make something he hates. He doesn’t hate us (we all sin so that means he would have to hate all of us), he hates sin. He hates sin b/c by scriptural definition sin is something that separates us from God and usually involves harm or consequence. It separates us from God, b/c it is destructive. We can choose to do things that harm us, or others (whether physically or emotionally), or we can choose to do things that build ourselves and others up (love). There are actually two translations for the word “sin,” translated from scripture out of the old manuscripts. One translation that is used less commonly throughout the scriptures is: “to step across, or go beyond a set boundary limit.” This sin is found when someone sins by disobeying an instruction that God gives them….for example Jonah when he disobeyed God and didn’t go to Nineveh. The sin we know of that we are referring to here means, “to miss the mark.” In other words, “to get off track, or sway from the original goal.” The original goal is true religion: helping each other, and caring for the helpless (and yes….helping each other would involve lovingly helping one another overcome sin and struggles). True religion is what brings us closer to God. This is
the truth.
In Sodom when Abraham and the angels protected his male visitors from the town of Sodom, b/c they wanted to have sex with them, it was the whole town. This included male and female. This is actually not a scripture about homosexual acts, it is about turning away from God and these acts were a result of that. They were doing these things out of worship for the Canaanite fertility goddess. It was accepted that all forms of sexuality were pleasing to the goddess, whether harmful, unnatural, or natural. God loves us and he wants us close, and we won’t be happy (in the long run) unless we do what we were made to do and that is to be close to God and do things that promote that. Now, when we do things that hurt ourselves, it causes us to focus on who? Ourselves, and not God or others. The state of being gay is not a sin, and I truly believe, that like everything else, if you allow God, he will take our imperfections and make good come out of them some how, we just have to be patient, endure, and trust. Now, I gave a definition for sin, that scripture has given us….anything that turns us away from God, or gets our eyes off the goal, or to cross a boundary or a line. This is the truth. Now TO ME, performing the ACT of anything sexual outside of the confines of a man and wife marriage is a sin, b/c it crosses a natural created boundary and it gets our eyes off the goal for the following reasons. There are many physical medical consequences to ANYTHING sexual outside of a man and wife marriage (and if we wanna go deeper, let’s include sodomy even in a marriage). There are many psychological consequences as well. For example, in the instance of a gay partnership, in MY OPINION, it is more loving to oneself and to the partner to not have a relationship that tempts each other, b/c even though it feels like it will fill a need physically, emotionally, and maybe spiritually, it will not, b/c it just can’t, we weren’t made that way. What will happen is it will cause a lot of emotional hurt, pain, misdirected blame, and most likely some physical damage as well. In the end, what happens, in our search for “love,” is we miss “love” all together b/c we are focused to much on our own immediate needs. Immediate needs are very different from our lasting/or eternal needs. It might make you happier at first, but later it will show it’s chaos. It hard enough for a man and a woman to ever find peace together, and they were made for each other. Anyway, God is here for all of us, and will get us through any trial, and help us endure. In fact, there are some many wonderful things that can be done for God, when not focused on finding that right someone or taking care of a family (yes, also very important, but we need christian people that aren’t tied up with a family too…you know, you can travel all over the place without as much difficulty!). Anyway, I certainly don’t pretend to know how it is being gay, or how hard it is, but I do know, we ALL have our struggles, and MOST of us INGORE them and go on b/c they aren’t as concrete to US.) Praise her friend for her endurance, and perseverance, her character will be an amazing one. Romans 5:3-4.
God Bless all of you, and may we all discover and learn and help one another become the church body that God as in mind! He will perfect his kingdom, and we are part of the perfection.
PS- I grew up in the church of Christ, so it’s a blessing getting the scriptural knowledge, but it came with a lot of church of Christ opinions too! I see all the denominations becoming congregations everyday, and I hope this continues. We have to remember that if they are not against us, they must be WITH US! Mark 9:40,Matthew 12:30a, Mark 9:38-41
I think the message of the gospel and all of scripture is clear, and it is ashamed that it has been perverted in order isolate people and make others feel good about themselves for all these years.
why?
sometimes why distracts from the journey.
sometimes why keeps us occupied over there, and we could’ve been looking over here.
i usually ask why when i dont want to change or when i feel hopeless to make the change. it’s too hard.
normally, why is my favorite question.
even when there is no ‘black & white’ answer and it’s all murky and gray….those are my favorite. i like to push peoples buttons and question things & i really love when someone actually pushes back.
i refuse to just swallow things people say. i love to question the why in the whats’.
but here where you’re looking for a real answer…i got nothin.
i just know that God loves you and He made you. i personally believe that gay people are born that way. whether genetics or sinful nature or both or whatever.
but i also believe that just b/c im born a certain way doesnt give me license to stay that way. we all have our crosses to bear, and i dont envy anyone who has to wrestle with being gay. hopefully we’ll all ‘work out our OWN salvation’ and just keep loving, encouraging, and praying for & with one another until we get a ticket outta this freakin place!
keep on truckin’ and enjoy the journey.
sorry i wasnt any help.
be blessed.
The Bible says acting on homosexual impulses is a sin. As far as someone being born Gay? YES, absolutely. We are all born with a given appetite for sin. That in itself makes us all sinners, acting on those apetites ore merelypossesing or thinking about them. All sin! All equally sinful.
If the Bible is wrong on this then it’s over, close down the churches, put locks on the door. If the Bible is wrong about anything actually. (See the first chapter of John).
The tension you feel Anne is that the Church as a whole has given in to the business of pleasing people. So we alter our message accordingly. For the first time in my life Homosexuality is actually prestigious (it has been in the artistic community which I’m involved in for a long time) Now it’s mainstream. From what I have seen and experienced the Church is more than willing to compromise scripture for the benefit of growth and unity. BTW compromise includes believing scripture but concealing that belief as well.
It’s tough.
Sin can simply be defined as acting outside the boundaries God put in place when he designed and created the world. God set boundaries around our relationships and marriages.
I’ve had the same struggle though in talking with a number of my gay friends. I know God loves them, I know they are great people, but if they want to follow the way of Jesus, they have to recognize what is separating them from God. Just as I struggle with lust, gossip and pride – part of their struggle with be same sex attraction.
I honestly don’t know. This is something I have been thinking about for some time.
I also don’t understand why we as Christians will bash someone for being gay and tell them they are sinning but then turn around and do whatever sin it is we do. We are all sinners.period.
I don’t think it’s right to focus on a group of people’s lifestyle we don’t agree with when there are lots of other things we should be focusing on, like for instance, love your neighbor.
So, back to my first statement, I honestly don’t know.
Anne: You have posted an interesting question…one that can’t be answered with cute little Christian cliches. At one point in my life I would have used them and let it go. “Accept it or go to hell.” I can no longer do that…not after looking into the mirror. Not that I believe it is okay but because my views have changed. I don’t believe a person is born gay. But I also don’t believe that it is a sin to have those feelings. What I believe is sinful is to act on them. The passage in Romans 1 definitely involves actions with another. Given the current economic crisis a person can be desperate for money so they can think about robbing a bank and even “hanker” to do it but he is not a thief until he/she acts on it. A person may have those same-sex attractions and may even a strong desire at times but it is not a sin until acted upon. Paul said “such were some of you.” I believe your friend can rest in the pillow of God’s grace and mercy knowing He loves her unconditionally in spite of her feelings. My .02 worth. Please let her know that she has been prayed for.
Jud – Kevin; both great answers but they answer “if” and not “why”…we are debating sin, we are wondering WHY being gay is a sin.
why been gay a sin…..look I’m not God Okay…read the Bible and if are not able to reach an understanding…then switch to the other sex, to see if you like it….if you do then you have your ans……….if you don’t then your are one of us….make any sense?
What saddens me is that this topic has easy answers. And that people like the ones on this blog who have such easy access to study materials on any subject right on the web poke around like they have no answers. Or worse think that maybe some questions just have no answers. I don’t know if it is laziness or ignorance.
If you are really wanting it; dozens if not hundreds of resources could be listed here pointing toward your “elusive” answer.
Serious question. Do you really not know the anwer? Or are you just wanting it to get “debated” around down here in the comments?
. . . Male and female were created in His image. Any same sex relations kill the image of God that is pictured in the harmony of a one flesh relationship between married males and females. (that is for starters) and nothing to do with meanness or the Bible says so kind of stuff.
Same sex relationships kills the image of GOD? That is the biggest load of crap that Ive heard. For the record, Homosexuals,Hermaphrodites, were created first. In the Canaanite religion, Homosexuals were revered and called Kedoshim. This word means HOLY. Why, because the first creature created was ADAM. HE was not a man nor a woman. Adam was a dual sexed creature that could not pro-create. This was Gods intention from the first place. It is not until GOD realized Adam was lonely that he split Adam into two making male and female. Like it or not, Homosexuals, true homosexuals, not someone who decided oneday to become one, but homosexuals that are born that way are MORE in the divine image than Heterosexuals who need two to tangle. In ancient text, homosexuals are described as Eunuchs. Eunuchs were not always men that were castrated, but men who were not attracted to women. This is why they held high offices in Ancient society because they were trusted with Kings harem. The law against homosexuality in the Bible is not for everyone. It is intended for those who heterosexual and forbids them to practice homosexuality. If you do research you will find that 8% of gays are by choice and the other 92% would love to be straight, but they cannot change their orientation. Why is this so difficult? I am Jewish by the way, and I am sick and tired on Christian missionaries telling me I need Jesus. Why? For the record, Reform Jews in America, (the majority) are accepting of gays, even having gay and lesbian Rabbis, We believe in the equality of the sexes, we were active in the civils rights movement even helping to form the NAACP and upholds Justice and equality for all. NOW, why do I need your Jesus, when the Jesus you represent is homo phobic, many Christians are racist, and many congregations dont allow woman minister. From the looks of it, Maybe I should hand you a track about Jesus, because it seems that we have him and YOU dont. Let me give you a text from your own New Testament, a text your minister doesnt want you to read, Matthew 19:12 For their are some Eunuchs which were born so from their mothers womb,and there are some Eunuchs which were made Eunuchs of men,and there be Eunuchs which have made themselves Eunuchs for the Kingdom of heavens sake. HE THAT IS ABLE TO RECEIVE IT, LET HIM RECIEVE IT.
NOW IF YOU CANT ACCEPT HOMOSEXUALS, THEN SAY IT. DONT BLAME GOD, OR PUT ANYTHING ON WHAT HE HAS CREATED. JUST SAY, I CANT RECEIVE IT, AND BE ON YOUR WAY. BOTTOM LINE, IT IS NOT AN OFFENSE AGAINST GOD. IT IS NOT A SIN. IF IT IS? BLAME GOD.
I don’t think being attracted to the same sex is in and of itself a sin. It is a desire, which can certainly lead to sin, but most desires are not specifically sinful or unsinful, it is how we choose to respond to our desires that is either pleasing to God or not.
Lust is certainly a sin. Sex outside of marriage is certainly a sin. These have been specifically delineated by God’s word as sin.
What is, I’m sure, most frustrating for those who experience same-sex attraction is that there is no permissible outlet for them. A young person who experiences an attraction for the opposite sex must subdue his or her desires until they can be properly fulfilled in marriage. The one attracted to the same sex has a much longer journey ahead. But even among het-oriented people, not all who WANT to be married have that opportunity. So maybe it isn’t all that different.
We all have desires that we shouldn’t act on. Sometimes we understand why we mustn’t act, other times it seems (to us) to be arbitrary. But since God made us, I assume he knows us, knows our desires, and has a deeper understanding of what is good for us and what isn’t (I know that’s a non-answer answer).
I do wonder, if maybe there is something about the male/female relationship that God wants us to see and understand, something it tells us about himself, something it teaches us about ourselves… maybe that is why he blesses that relationship and forbids same-sex unions?
I agree with what was said by the previous two posters, that we should definitely differentiate between the desires and the actions. One is not sinful, the other may be. And we need to be cautious about singling out certain sins as “more sinful”. If we truly believed that greed, gluttony, gossiping, lying, and meanness are all equal to engaging in sex outside of marriage, we would be a far more humble and less judgmental group of people.
That’s my two cents, for what it’s worth. I’m not an especially educated or intelligent person, so I could be wrong all the way around.
Brice – first, NO. I could care less how many comments I get. That’s why I clearly stated this was a serious question, humbly asked for people’s thoughts and said if it gets out of hand I’ll delete people’s comments. Bro, you need to get off your comment soap box every once in a while and stop assuming the worst about my intention on posting. Gets old fast.
It is a serious question formed after hours and hours of talking with her (my friend) and then a chance with me to talk with her. Not to mention I have a relative who is gay and another very good friend who’s gay who all have the same question.
So by your logic it is a sin for someone to be single because that isn’t marriage…is that out of God’s plan?
burn!
(sorry that was not nice of me)
It’s alot of freaks in this world, two dicks dont make babies, two pussys either, so if being gay is not a sin i dont know what is!
Have your friend read Romans 1 : 14 – 32. It gives an interesting history about where homosexuality comes from. The root of it, as I see it when I read, is idolatry.
Most modern day relationships start with idolatry. They see another person who looks appealing, appeasing and they decide that those feelings means they like this person. Sometimes depending on how strong the feeling is we think we *need* this person. We begin to think about this person all the time, we then move into obsession and because our heart and stomachs are all a flutter, depending on how strong the feeling is, we constitute it as love.
My question is this, in any of this where are we thinking about the other person without thinking about ourselves? In other words, how are we viewing the other person as Christ would view them, “How can I serve them? How can I best love them? Even if it means I get NOTHING out of it”.
In a relationship with a homosexual, are they viewing it any differently? Are they in the relationship because they want to serve the person or because the person makes their aching heart feel better?
It’s wrong because it is not a relationship honoring God. It is not a lifestyle that is honoring God. If we are a Christian then our lives should be honoring and pleasing to God. Walking around in immodest clothing trying to get male’s attention is wrong. Sleeping with guys before I’m married is wrong. Stealing something from a friend is wrong, even if I think I need it more than they should.
All of the above things are self-seeking, not Kingdom, Christ seeking.
God gives us the choice, we can seek Him and choose to honor Him, even though our hormones are raging and our minds are racing and our lives are instable, or we can give in to our fleshly desires – whatever they may be – and when we open that door we open ourselves up to all kinds of other things.
Another thing would be for us as Christians to reexamine how we ourselves get into relationships and why we get into relationships. Not saying relationships are bad, but just because you and the other person are both believers doesn’t make the relationship automatically sacred, holy and God-centered by default.
Just my little view on the matter. I will be praying for you and your friend.
Emily,
I know your post is a year old, but I like the thoughtfulness of your answer. And I would support it with what John wrote about marriage. He said that it would be better to remain single, than be married and not serve God because you are obsessed with your spouse.
I just know what I have learned in the year and half I have been a baptized Christian. And that is the the Bible is the true word of God, written by men who were filled with the spirit of God. The bible says that homesexuality is an aboanation (sp?) to God. Doesn’t that mean it is a sin. Jesus came to fullfill the law, he was the perfect sacrafice for all our sins. But to continue to commit the sin, knowing it is a sin to God. Isn’t that the the true sin, but God’s forgiveness is new each day and we will all be judged by God in the end and not by the laws or bigotry of man.
It is late and my thoughts are rambled, I am sure that there is a point and an answer in there somewhere. But then again I am a sinner too, I am overweight and knowingly eat too much and the wrong kinds of food and isn’t gluttony an abmonination (sp?)(sin).
I think its that aspect that once our thoughts and actions are put into action as such for example actively thinking and tantelising physical thoughts of some one of the same sex ( and even the opposite sex if they are not your wedded partner) This is when it becomes sin. the same applies for activily practising homosexuality.
So much the same as what Stevie said. its not so much that why is being gay a sin its what that leads to.
I’m becoming increasingly convinced as time goes on that the kind of homosexuality that many in the G/L community think of as ideal today–lifelong committed monogomy–is not in Scripture’s purview. In other words, when Scripture refers to same-sex practices, it is not referring to what we see today. It is most likely referring, a good many scholars agree, to when, for example, a man had sex with a younger man or boy as a way of expressing the former’s power over the latter. Such an act is clearly out of bounds today, illlegal even, but it was prevalent in NT times. The situation is more complex than this, but I wonder if there isn’t some category confusion around this issue–assuming we know what Scripture means when really we don’t.
Emily – what does that relationship not honor God if it is not self seeking? These are the deeper threads of what we are wondering.
I think sometimes the answer to these types of questions is much like what every parent tells a child at some point. “Because I said so.” Sometimes I give my kids that familiar phrase when the full answer is more than they can understand at that point. I think there are PLENTY of things I don’t understand and trust in God means that I take his word when he says so. (Just like I would prefer that my children do for me!)
That said…my personal (and imperfect) theory is that homosexual activity began as an offering of some kind to a foreign god. God is a jealous god.
Like someone else said, I cannot imagine this cross to bear and my heart goes out to those who do bear it. My prayer for the people in my life who are straight, gay or struggling is that they feel the grace and love of God.
Anne, it is a good question. I’ll try to keep it brief and to the the point and share an answer that isn’t just about condemnation.
Jesus states that He is the way the truth, and the life, not a truth. The Truth. So when God’s word says homosexuality is sin, we are are left with a choice, albeit a hard choice that takes us back to the garden of Eden. The fruit looks good to eat. Smells good, not even the slightest overripe. The tree of life stands near. It has fruit too. Choice is the code word of the day. We can’t have both. But both look good.
Because God states He is truth, He also becomes the standard by which to live by. His word becomes law. The fact that God’s word says homosexuality is against God’s plan does make it a sin. To literally “miss the mark” for what God wants for us.
Overcoming sin is the hard part. It requires first understanding God as a standard of truth, then living like it, which means putting your own will aside. Jesus didn’t say it would be easy.
Well Anne, you certainly ask the tough questions. For me, being gay (which I define – rightly or wrongly, as having sex with the same sex) is sin purely because God forbids it. I am not plagued by the why is it a sin (possibly because it doesn’t affect me personally), however, in a similar fashion I do not ask why lying, gossip, stealing etc is a sin. It’s all sin, and we all deal with it in some form or another. The fact that it is a socially acceptable sin these days does not help any. Most other sins are easy to see why they are sin.
I have met a few gay people who have got saved, and tried to journey with them as they became closer to God and learnt more about Him, His nature and His view on sin.
Recently I encountered a Christian who knows the word of God, decide that she will become gay. It blew me away. Of course she is finding support in churches that believe it is ok. I grieve for her in the way I grieve for anyone who has known God and somehow ends up totally deceived.
Good on you for raising the question. I look forward to reading some more responses.
All that being said, at the end of the day, I trust who God is, and that He knows way more than me and has my best interests at heart, even if I can’t reason why. One example is with Eve, there was no logical reason why she shouldnt eat that fruit other than God said not to. She had no idea of the ramifications of her actions.
I think that purely acknowledging that it is not God;s plan for your life (for whatever reason) is enough. Then spend the energy we are using to find out why, to seek out God’s help to make the hard changes ( I mean that in the nicest way too).
Well then let’s take it out of the homosexuality court and throw it into the bigger court – why does having sex before marriage not honor God? Why is murdering not honoring to God? Why is stealing or coveting or lying or not being respectful of your parents not honoring to God? He is a holy God and His ways are above our ways. Speaking as one Christian to another, that’s Biblical right there. Why would God make His people the Israelites wander the desert for 40 years? Why would God allow all the babies when CHrist was born to be killed? Why God allow any of it?
The big grand answer: I don’t know. I’m not God. I am not the one to be asking.
Another thought:
Why do people want relationships? Deep down inside? It is true that we were made to be relational beings. But the primary relationship of our life should be God. If we cannot allow God to fulfill all of us, then we will never find true satisfaction in marriage or other earthly relationships. It’s true. People place too much hope and too many expectations on people. We are all human and we all fail.
But God is not human and He does not falter. We also cannot ask Him to fit into our little boxed thinking. Yet the God of the universe has offered us redemption, life and hope and we want to whine to Him that we cannot be in relationships with the same sex?
Your friend is not alone in her struggles. We all struggle with one thing or another. It’s what we do with the struggling that matters. Are you going to honor God in the midst of it? Or are you going to give in and sin. I struggle, not with homosexual thoughts or feelings, but with other things. To stop in my tracks and look at God and go, “WHY?” is easy to do. But it stops you, and trips you, making you waste valuable time.
Life is full of the “why?” questions. Life is full of trials, struggles, temptations and tests. I don’t know why God makes some people the way He does, lets some things happens and puts us where He puts us. But I do know that regardless of who I am, where I’m at or what I hope to do, if I’m not doing it because God wants it done or refraining because God has asked, then I’m walking sin – whether that be homosexuality or whatever else.
My sister recently told me she was gay honestly it did not suprise me . Of course she decided to be gay after being married for 13 years and having three children. Maybe not everyone that is gay falls into this cateegory , but I feel strongly that some people are gay because of wounded relationships with their parents. We had horrible parents and I think she is looking for anyone that will love her and make her feel special the way our parents should have. Her life is an absolute mess right now and not because she chose to become gay, but because she has got to learn to put God first and do the work of counseling and getting real for awhile. I know all I can do is meet her where she is at and love her no matter what and pray that she finds healing.
I hope I never stop asking why.
I think it is the only way to keep growing, and having God guide you.
(and just to note. my friend was far from whining).
Being Gay doesn’t hurt anyone or yourself in my opinion like other some sins do. So, why is it wrong? I have always used the “Naturalistic” answer/question. Can two women reproduce, can two men “make a baby?” This is more of an emotional conversation, so I will agree with Anne: I don’t know! I do know that masterbating at my computer using a web based Harlot doesn’t hurt anyone or myself, but it is wrong! I, also, don’t know why 9/11 and Katrina happened or why my wife has Cancer, but I know God is GOOD. So, today I am going to do my best to live like his instruction manual tells me to. And if that involves “fighting off” sin from all different angles, then that is what I will do.
I think there have been some great posts already – some with answers, some with none…but particularly, I fall under the same category as Ecushia, William, and Cindy.
Sometimes there are no answers – and I won’t even pretend that I am going to answer the question, because I can’t. I don’t have the wisdom, the foresight, or the gall to put myself in God’s position.
A lot of critics of our faith criticize that very thing – faith: the fact that the majority of things we believe are based simply because the Bible and Jesus said it. I realize the enormity of the ignorance in this next statement, but what is faith with concrete evidence? Not nearly as powerful as the faith that I have.
Having said all that, I will try to address this issue through a post I made last summer when reading through one of the letters to the Cornithians. (you can read it here: http://lionrebel.wordpress.com/2008/06/10/truth-and-lies-old-and-new/ )
I think the bigger picture I am seeing here is that you are exercising your compassion for “Israel,” and I commend you for that – I need a greater portion of compassion giving in my life. Thanks for the example to follow.
The thing is this: God’s grace covers all sins…unless we continually participate in them. No sin is left off of this list! Why are people overweight? Why are people porn addicts? Why are people selfish? They are all one and the same – in God’s eyes. It is through trusting God that he knows best that we find relief, comfort, and grace.
Paul says in his letter to the Corinthians: “Those are the ways we were, but no longer are! We were washed, we were sanctified, and we were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” (my paraphrase)
Thanks for broaching this subject so humbly and compassionately…
I think at the core of any sin issue. Is do I trust that God knows what is best for me? That is not something we can argue or debate with another person. Each one of us has to come humbly before the creator of the world and accept or reject that He is who He says He is.
Once we have that settled, we extend that trust and faith into the areas of our lives where we struggle with temptations. And we are forced to ask ourselves, Is this the best God has for me? And do I want the best God has for me?
And the bible is very clear on the fact that God created “male and female” as the design for partnership relationships. Why God designed it that way is a question we can ask him when we get to heaven.
I know my comment makes it sound easy and carefree and trust me I do realize through personal struggles just how difficult temptations can be for anyone.
I am just thankful to a God who Loves and forgives my shortcomings, and gives me the opportunity every day to choose to live for Him.
God Bless
I’ve written and deleted and changed this post about a half a dozen times since I started writing it. The only thing I can think of (and it’s a wild guess) is that we were put on the earth to be fruitful and multiply and homosexuality doesn’t further along that aim. I believe that just like I feel I was born an addict they were born gay. I’m grateful that it’s not something I struggle with. I can only imagine how difficult it must be to come to a community that for the most part won’t empathize with your sin. All sin is equal. I’ll pray for your friend and hope there’s better answers out there than mine.
My thinking is along the line of Kevin’s response above. Thinking back to the Garden of Eden, why did God not want Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Why was he keeping it from them? Why could they eat of the tree of life? Why?
Because God knew best. He knew that if the human mind and spirit were made aware of what evil was, they would choose evil. Man has always, for the most part, chosen evil. We have chosen to determine for ourselves, rather than from God, what is best for us. We miss the mark every time. God knows that male/female companionship and marriage is the only right way. All other ways are wrong. God knew this. He made that evident when it was a man and a woman in the garden, not a man and a man, or a woman and a woman. He knew. We didn’t, and we still don’t.
Only one can be right, and that is God.
Hopefully, asking why leads us back to scripture, because it is the source of truth. So yes, we can continually grow and learn what God has for us through his revelation. If we try to rationalize the “whys” in a worldly context, then we could talk circles around this issue. If you leave out what the Bible says about it, then it’s not a sin, it’s just a feeling that is acted upon.
I’d be interesting to hear her definition of sin, and from there, see where being gay fits in
Anne, thank you for this humble question. I have a few gay friends, both Christian and non-Christian, and I so long for them to be cared for well by the church. I appreciate that you are doing that for your friend.
I am one person, uneducated in theological things, but I think there are some answers that haven’t been mentioned yet. I’m confident they are not the complete truth about the matter, but I hope they contribute not only to the discussion but also to your friends journey.
1 Corinthians 6:18-20:
“Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.”
You wrote: “It?s pretty easy to see why sins like murder or adultery or what-have-you-that?s-evil are sins. It?s because they ultimately involve hurting someone.” Then, based on that statement, you asked why being gay is a sin. I think that the scripture above clarifies something about this: sexual sin – even when it doesn’t seem to immediately hurt others – hurts you. The one who sins sexually sins against his own body.
For Christians, God lives in us, and not in some metaphorical way. The Holy Spirit resides in our bodies to empower us to apply holiness while we live in our still-tempted bodies. When we participate in a sinful sexual act, we take the Holy Spirit with us, and by using His own residence, our body, to oppose his leading, we damage ourselves body and soul. While the immediate consequence may not be as obvious as adultery or murder, it is still serious.
OK, I’m writing too much. I have a couple other thoughts, but I need to leave it here. Thanks for listening.
Thanks for opening this can of worms, Anne. This is a tough-as-nails question. From my experience interacting with believers from around the world and from the comments on this post, it’s obvious the church is in a state of flux.
In many believer’s minds, it’s not black or white anymore. And a major reason why is because we all have THAT friend . . . you know the one . . . a family member, someone we respect, a descent, God-honoring, Christ-following, honest-hearted person . . . who is gay.
Let’s keep the conversation going . . .
Anne,
Thanks for posting this and ‘becoming Israel’, thank you for exposing the most raw part of you. Most of us don’t have the guts to do so. Thank you.
I love some of the above comments and some are difficult to take in. The reason why I am struggling is how do we as humans give reasons as to why? Am I applying my human logic or emotion to a situation? Are we wrestling with, “what is God’s logic in saying the acting on this is a sin?” They are 2 different but equally gut-wrenching questions for me and I think the latter is where we are dwelling.
Some questions that I’m thankfully asking myself because of this post are this:
-What does my faith look like when I don’t have the reasons?
-How much does God need to explain/reveal to me in order for my faith to stick?
-Are the unanswerable questions of God’s motive assuaged by what I know to be true of God’s character?
All that to say, I do not know WHY. Human logic and emotion fail me. But I am sure that I can no longer rest on that way of living anymore. I’ve failed too much.
If I am way off base, I’d love to hear as I am really trying to grow through this.
Thanks,
Dan
HI Anne,
All points I have read are great here. From one that struggled with lust in all forms, pornography, heterosexuality I also began to feel a desire in me to experience yet another realm of sexuality in homosexuality. This was years ago but it scared me enough to put my nose into the Bible and find out what God says about it. We so often rely on our human emotions in these instances and because of what you mentioned we tend to want to be very inclusive to the point where we allow areas that were once black and white to get gray.
The one place the church has blown it over the years is not accepting those struggling with “godless” desires. The hardest thing for us to break in our lives is that which perverts the innate sexuality that God has installed into our lives. He said be fruitful and multiply and therefore gave the ability to acheive that command. Just like He provides everything for life and godliness and the call on our lives.
The interesting thing about the current Christian gay communtiy is the basic mantra that “God loves the gay person too.” Well in all reality it has never been about who or what “subgroup” of society God loves. God is love and anyone who loves is born of God. I have two very close female friends who I knew when they were married to their respective husbands and now they are “married” to each other. They put my righteousness to shame as I see them accepting their freedom as lesbians and loving God and living freer than I believe I have ever felt. I don’t condone the personal activity of their lives but it’s interesting to see how there has been such a need for those struggling with these desires to find a place of acceptance. The church has blown it in my eyes in this area as well as other people who are struggling with major controversial and innate issues.
I guess my biggest word of advice for those of us here is to realize what God’s heart was for mankind from the start. And it’s not about Adam and Eve versus Adam and Steve but it is about what God’s plan for our lives was and aligning ourselves with who He is and what His character is. Anytime homosexuality is mentioned in the Bible it is mentioned with a very negative connotation. It shows me that it was not God’s intent for us to live in that way because we then are put in a position to miss the full reality of God’s purpose for our lives. And futhermore God told us to be “fruitful and multiply” and in a honosexual relationship, that is not possible in the physical.
i too agree dealing with the feelings and even a bent towards sexuality, wanting to experience it with a person of the same sex is not sin. The impulse of anything apart from God’s will is not sin. Allow yourself to align with something out side of His will is when you start your trek “off mark” and then your experience, especially if positive, will then cement your feelings a little more and so on to the point that you will begin to justify your feelings and your activity though your humanity, placing on God those same feelings of acceptance until you are fully blinded by living a life that makes you feel amazing but is far from God’s intent for your life. Dealing with those who have gotten that far is difficult at best and it is only in moments where they question that you can offer the light of the Word into their lives. Not pat answers. They are so lame. Understanding, acceptance of who they are yet not dumbing down the standard of God’s original intent is how one must approach those in this struggle. I know secretly those who live that alternative lifestyle still feel a sense of concern and even some of shame and there are many out there who will simply tell them to let it go and be free in who God made them to be, gay and proud. We missed it as the body of Christ so long ago to live like Jesus towards those who were dealing with this however it has been around a long time. Sodom and Gomorrah, Egypt, Rome, Greece, etc…all these “kingdoms” experienced this in a major way so as long as there has been innate sexuality (Adam and Eve) there has been the enemy of our souls wishing to pervert it in anyway they can. Judgment and banishment is not the answer. Ultimately being loving, accepting and being a carrier of the presence of God (spending time in His presence and being filled to overflowing with the Spiit of God) will pour the reality of God’s heart onto all with which you come into contact. It is ultimately the Spirit of God who changes us and leads us into all truth. If there are those who are seeking it, we need but pray for them and for the Spirit to reveal God’s heart to them.
Sorry for the Doctoral Thesis.
Great question and I assume that we are agreeing that scripture (no, not man’s opinion of scripture but truth rightfully understood) is our authority. If so let’s start with a look at the question, “Is one born homosexual?”. The book of Romans is one of the most concise theological presentations of sin and sanctification we have. under the context of God’s wrath, we find that God desires us to glorify Him with our lives as we live in subjection to Him. But man rebelled (all of us…in Adam we all sinned) We chose to worship ourselves or man made things instead of God. This led to darkened hearts ( a nice way of saying that our minds had our God capacity turned off) We lost a vital link to our God relationship. The result of this was that God let us live out our own desires. And He lists sex as a primary way we tend to stray first. (we are in the habit of saying all sins are equal, but the Bible says concerning sexual sins, “All other sins a man commits are outside the body.” please read 1 Corinthians 6:18-20 here….
Simply put, sin is anything that is counter to God’s design/intention, and because homosexual acts are not what God intended when he created sexuality, it is a sin.
It is like this with any sin…we all have a rebellious tendancy, since the fall, and that rebellion manifested is “sin”. Whether lying, stealing, murdering, fornicating…whatever..it’s all rebellion..all sin. It’s only through Christ that we can overcome this internal rebellion, finding victory in him….even if that internal struggle never seems to go away completely. Every day he’ll help us into victory.
Following Art’s line of thinking, “Yea, hath God said why homosexuality is sinful even though we have a caring relationship?”
In every case where man breaks out of the boundaries God lays out, consequences abound. The polygamists in the OT (Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, et al) all had serious family problems as a consequence of their disobedience in this area.
In the same way, homosexuality goes against a) God’s creative/pro-creative plan; b) is listed as the result of a downward spiral.
It boils down to do we accept boundaries that God has laid out. If we don’t accept the boundaries, what does that say about believing what God has said? “Whatsoever is not of faith is sin” Rom. 14.23
Can one honestly say, the homosexual relationship, which is against God’s commandment and against the natural order God established, gives Him glory?
Lots of marriages don’t give Him glory either, and they are just as disobedient as the person living in gay relationship. A pastor beating his wife verbally is an illicit relationship; a 40 yr old and a 14 yr old getting it on is illicit no matter what their feelings for each other are; wrong relationships might be better than what you had in the past, but they still are not the plan God laid out for us.
The answer to “Who is hurt by this sin?” is answered here. It is a “Sin against your own body”.
Now, back to Romans, in verse 24-26, We have explained to us that God allowed us to express and act out those sinful desires of the heart to sexual impurities, A “Degrading fo our bodies (here it is just like Corinthians…it’s a body thing!) now look closely at 26-27…it says that some “exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. men with men, women with women. Now it appears to me that this passage is saying that the natural, that is God’s clear design for men and women…a monogamous relationship between one man and one woman, was given over in exchange for “unnatural” which is same sex sexual relations. So wouldn’t that mean that no one is born homosexual only that it is one of the many choices we make. It is only true to the degree that I can say I was born a liar. That too is unnatural…but I made the choice.
Hope that brings a little light on the subject though it doesn’t answer all the deeper questions still out there
Blessings
Why? I don’t know that it is. On the top of my head, on the surface of scriptures, I think it is…but then I read other scriptures that we scriptures that we specifically avoid or don’t ask why about, and no one walks around referring to those things as sin, and certainly would agree they were not sin in the covenant Jesus made in the NT. So, I can agree- I don’t know why it is a sin, but further than most here, I can say I don’t know that it is. Shoot proverbial bullets in me if you would like. I do not struggle with being gay but have had many friends in the GL community who were believers in the same Savior who saved me. And I don’t always make the right decisions, so I certainly don’t want to condemn someone when I’m not even sure that in context what we are talking about is the same as what was discussed in scriptures. I know that history tells us many of the homosexual relationships had in those times were adulterous situations in which soldiers had sexual relationships with other soldiers when they were away from home. I am sure too, that the bathhouse situation did not help. Sorry that was not clear, there were just a number of posts that repeated themselves and I just wanted to say hey, some of us aren’t sure.
Although I can’t give a complete definitive answer, I believe scripture when it talks about marriage being a reflection of God both male and female. God’s plan for marriage seems to revolve around reflecting His image and “being fruitful and multiplying”. Neither of which can be done through same sex relationships. Nor will he enter into a covenant marriage with same sex partners. I think the enemy fights a strong battle here trying to convince people that they couldn’t possibly be happy or happier following God’s way. In truth it is always far better than we could plan ourselves.
Another side note, because of the people in my life with homosexual tendencies or lifestyles and knowing them well enough to know their families. Many times there is a generational history of homosexuality, so as with any sin that is given a stronghold I believe there is generational sin that is passed down; therefore appearing as if we are ‘born” with it.
I don’t know if any of that made sense, but hey I’m not a morning person!
First, please encourage your friend. It is obviously not an easy situation. A great place to start looking is this website: http://www.pureintimacy.org/homosexuality/.
The Bible is wholly reliable:
The Bible is wholly reliable, trustworthy and true in all that it affirms. It clearly teaches the honor, dignity and value of the two sexes as created in God?s image ? intentionally male and female ? each bringing unique and complementary qualities to sexuality and relationships.
Sin is a matter of the heart:
Jesus defines sin as: longing, lingering deliberate, desire for what is wrong!
Matthew 5:28?”But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart”
James 1: 13-15 (NLT) instructs on the progression of sin: And remember, when you are being tempted, do not say, ?God is tempting me.? God is never tempted to do wrong, and he never tempts anyone else. Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death.
Your Sexuality: A glorious gift from God:
Sexuality is a glorious gift from God ? meant to be offered back to Him either in the marriage of a man to a woman for procreation, union and mutual delight or in celibacy for undivided devotion to Christ.
Scripture address the wider context of all sexual, immoral, and prohibited behaviors: all sexual activity outside of this is sin?adultery, porn, booty calls, FWB, bestiality… is sin.
Scriptures that testify against homosexual behavior?include Leviticus 18:22, 20:13; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; 1 Timothy1:9-10
A man and a woman?in marriage is the way:
Scripture begins and ends with the picture of marriage as an institution ordained by God ? designed for the union of a man and a woman in a life-long, faithful, covenantal relationship. This view is affirmed by Moses, Christ, and Paul, and has been upheld through thousands of years of Judeo Christian history and tradition.
Jesus clearly referred to heterosexuality as a standard. He specifically described God’s created intent for human sexuality: ?But at the beginning of creation God ?made them male and female. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”
Love!
God wants people to be satisfied, fulfilled, happy, and at peace. He established a way for that to happen. His law is love, and His gospel is peace.
However, we are bent on doing things that are against His law. The Bible says we have no ability to please God by our own merit. It is only through the power of the Holy Spirit that one can obey and please God and in turn, be satisfied, fulfilled, happy, and at peace.
Any and all “sin” is such because it does not enable us to be completely satisfied, fulfilled, happy, and at peace.
God has a way for us to be fulfilled. We have access through the blood of Christ, and power to live a holy, completely satisfied life through the Holy Spirit.
This is a hard topic for me because my dad has chosen to be gay…but I would have to agree with the commenters that say it is the “natural” vs “unnatural”. In Genesis God gives the first command in the Bible and it is to Adam and Eve “be fruitful and multiply.” And the truth is that a woman and woman can not multiply and a man and man can not multiply. So it goes against the first commandment that God set.
A womans body is set up to conceive and have a child and a male is set up to start that.
I agree that the thoughts with homosexuality is not sin, but it is seeking the pleasure that natural sex gives you with an unnatural source.
Wether it is a tendancy, perversion or just for fun doesn’t change that it is self gratifying.
I don’t feel like I communicated it very well, I have never had to type it out.
I have called people and talked this through before I answered, and I still don’t have any complete clarity.
I think my answer is not simple, nor completely argued through, but it includes much of what is said here. I think that God is life and that He is the creator of life and He created us for life and to continue life. He created sex to aide in this. But this is where it gets kind of tricky, because He didn’t just create sex for life. He created sex for pleasure, and its a d@*n good pleasure.
But, you can’t argue, I don’t think, that He created sex for one purpose exclusively (i.e. pleasure or procreation). They are not mutually exclusive when discussing the act of sex. So you have people arguing here that sex is for procreation, yes, and for pleasure. And you have homosexual people (and me as a heterosexual who doesn’t want kids…yet) arguing that he created sex for pleasure. Yes, and for procreation. So its tricky, but its not. Sex does have a two fold purpose, but you can’t leave out the creation of life for pleasure, because it wasn’t just created for one purpose.
Kind of like you can’t just say God is love. He is also wrath. We don’t get how He is completely both of these, but He is. Or how Jesus was completely human and completely God at the same time. He just is completely both.
Sex is fully for both purposes, and the homosexual couple can’t complete half of the purpose, so yes, I think it does go against the design. I don’t want to say “natural,” because I think a homosexual person has a completely valid argument in saying what is natural for them whether a heterosexual person agrees with this or not. However, it goes against the design of continuing life, and I don’t just mean for “procreation’s” sake, but because God is life. So, since it goes against God’s design (half of the equation above), I think it is sin
So, while this answer is not complete, I think this is a start for me, but I’m still struggling with the answer.
Fascinating conversation and props to everything for keeping it a healthy discussion! Some have mentioned that being gay is not the sin. Acting on those desires is the sin. Jesus says that if you look at a woman lustfully you have committed adultery with her in your heart. Is the act of “looking lustfully” the sin in this scenario? Just trying to discern when the desire becomes the sin.
asking why isn’t necessarily bad in itself – not believing the answer to the question is absolutely deadly (sin is death) – the answer to ‘why’ is stated numerous times above.
if we can’t accept the ‘why’ answer when the answer is simply “God says NO!” then we will not accept the answer to why must i believe in You to be saved and why did You die for me, what makes You think that You needed to?” or even why do you think You are even God at all?
just for the record, my personal belief is that when we have a very clear and direct order from God (as stated above in specific scripture), and we ask why, we are simply saying “i don’t believe You” or we are benig rebellious toward Him – sin itself and we are all guilty of that indeed
(before the holy rollers stone me – yes i ask why sometimes, and yes i count it as sin)
I don’t have a lot of time to answer, so I’m going to be incredibly brief.
1) I’m Catholic
If that makes my opinion nil to you, then please have an open mind for a little while.
2) I’m about to recommend some Catholic writing on the subject…
These are the things the Catholic Church teaches about homosexuality, at the most basic:
1) BEING gay is not a sin.
2) ACTING OUT on those feelings is the sin
If you want to truly understand both the reasons why, and more, there are many sources:
1) Theology of the Body by Pope John Paul II – JP2′s Wednesday audience from 79-84, combined into one extremely scholarly book, which is translated into many languages.
2) Theology of the Body Explained by Christopher West – Christopher West translates it into language for lay people to better understand it.
3) Theology of the Body for Teens – A series that makes it even more easily understood.
4) Naked Without Shame – A series of Christopher West talks on 10 CDs. You can find it for sale online for just the cost of shipping. http://www.giftfoundation.org/
That’s all I have time for. Sorry.
Is it possible that the many facets of God are revealed in type via male female consummation? For example, one of God?s names is ?many breasted one? signifying His ample supply to us. That name reveals a trait revealed in nature best in a woman?s anatomy. And conversely the many masculine names of God are revealed in man.
Therefore when a man and a woman unite they are a portrait of the whole of God revealing His entire nature through one union.
A Jewish tradition suggests that God?s glory is tangibly evident at consummation between male and female. The shekinah glory. But not so when two same types (sexes) of God’s manifold nature come together for then it?s an aberration of intended design and not accurately representative of the true God.
Could that be possible? Does that even make sense? That?s my theory.
Thanks Anne for starting this conversation. I have friends and family members who struggle with the same thing.
Lots of great post so far so I won’t repeat (or try not to repeat) previous made statements, but to take a stab at the “why” I think It would be helpful for you friend to look at the story of Job.
Job asked “why”, but in a way that did not curse God… in fact for 37 chapters we see or read the story of Job and hear the “why” question, then in chapter 38-God answers Job, and does so for the next three chapters.
I know this maybe be elementary but from what “I” get from those chapters is that God says to Job, “My ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts are higher than your thoughts”… as previous mention above, He knows what’s best.
As a community of believers we must rally around EVERONE who struggles with not living in accordance to His word, as you have demonstrated in this instance.
Sins like gossip, theft, murder, etc. have a clear, cooki-cutter answer: they hurt people. But, like you said, homosexuality doesn’t have that easy answer. I suppose the best I can offer is that it hurts God.
God gave us fairly clear direction regarding the practice of our sexuality, and any perversion of that distorts what He created.
Imagine yourself giving a child a gift, a Nintendo Wii perhaps. Instead of plugging it into his TV and playing a game, he tosses it around like a volleyball. How would that make you feel? You bought him the Wii to be used for a fairly specific purpose, and he uses it for something else.
It’s a flawed analogy, but I think sex is like that. It’s a gift from God, and anytime we use it improperly, we hurt God.
i wish i knew. i wish i knew why jesus loved me! i dont get it because i suck. my suckiness is different. but its sin. i wish i knew why he died on a cross for my sin. i wish because he died on a cross and i have forgiveness that there was no more struggle over sin for me. he could have done something different. it could have been easier. he didnt have to struggle with his obedience. but he did. he questioned it. but he went anyway. not because of his sin. because of mine. he endured the cross and the shame and the suffering for the joy that was before him. i want to follow jesus. my sin was nailed to a tree. but everyday i die to myself – crucify my flesh – for the joy that is before me. one day i will know.
Wow! I am glad you asked the question Anne. I think it’s good to challenge people on what they believe and why.
To be honest, years ago I would have taken the hard-line approach to this topic. However I have learned more and more about God’s grace, love and mercy. We are ALL born into sin and each of us has it manifest in our lives in different ways. For some it’s anger, gossip, murder, adultery and yes homosexuality. It’s all sin. No one sin is greater than another.
So why is it sin? IMO it’s sin because God says so. Is that fair? Is God a God of Love? Yes and Yes. God created us and can set whatever standard He so desires. For His reasons He has set the standard that this issue along with many others, is sin.
However our approach to a person who is struggling with this issue should be the same as a brother/sister who gossips. Non-judgmental reaching out with the love of Christ.
I believe we can point people to the truth of God’s Word in a spirit of love.
Anne said, “Jud – Kevin; both great answers but they answer ?if? and not ?why??we are debating sin, we are wondering WHY being gay is a sin.”
That’s what I thought I was saying. But being gay is a sin because we are all called to live the way Jesus lived, as our example. And so we must connect with Jesus and those who knew him best and were closest to him – and from their letters to the church we see a definition of marriage between one man and one woman, we see that to be gay is to abandon what God set in place. But it can only be thought of as sin if you subscribe to the teachings of Jesus and the bible as a guideline for your life.
Others have effectively delineated that having an attraction, or even a preference, is not a sin. The sin is the choice and the subsequent act.
The real question is, “Why would God allow a person to be born gay, or be placed in an environment where same gender attraction is developed, thus impairing the God-given, and soul-nourishing, institute of marriage and the hot, steamy, flippin-awesome sex that comes with it?”
I’m not gay but I admit that question weighs on me at times.
But so do other questions that are perfectly within God’s control. Some women are born barren. Surely a God of justice would make all women equally able to bear children and follow the model of Christian motherhood? Some children are born with leukemia. Surely a God of justice would give all children and equal number of years under the sun to live out a Christian life?
This list could get long quickly.
Pretty sure I’m not the only one to reach this conclusion but we are all severely defective in our own ways. I believe this is a direct consequence of “the fall.” We inherit the various physical and mental defects from that.
I used to think it wasn’t fair, you know, being punished for Adam and Eve’s fork up. But I see it now as an act of justice, in a strange way. God honors our free will and he permits our choices to have multi-generational consequences. This is why crack mothers give birth to crack babies.
Here is why I think this is “fair” or “just”. The converse is also true. Our right and proper choices, loving acts and good deeds can be planted in the same multi-generational soil.
If God is to allow our good deeds to lift up our children, in fairness should allow our evil deeds to shove them down.
Whoa, total tangent. Sorry!
peace|dewde
http://dewde.com
Interesting so many comments start with “I don’t know but maybe…” kind of statements. Makes me think of God’s response to Job (Job 38-42) when he says “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth…” God has his reasons and he knows better than we do. I enjoy at the end of Job chapter 42 “After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has…My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly.” God is fine with Job’s questions and wrestling but seemingly irritated at Job’s friends for their responses to his situation. I realize its a bible said so answer which works if you believe what is written in the bible. If not, than there is only speculation I suppose. Perhaps putting effort into cultivating a relationship with God through Jesus will allow us to better hear the Holy Spirit’s wisdom, direction and priorities on an individual basis.
So yeah, I only have a pat answer as to why homosexual sexual acts are sin–because the bible says so and for me its a matter of trusting God that He’s not an idiot for saying so. But I can offer encouragement for all who wrestle with their sin. Wrestling and struggling is better than blowing it off. Our relationship with Jesus is an ongoing journey which will never end til we meet him face to face. And then the struggling will be over. Wish I could do a better job of wrestling with my own crap then maybe I could better encourage someone in theirs.
OK, it took me so long to write my lengthy comment that Mario said it more clearly and faster.
First of all, sex outside of marriage is fornication and/or adultery (depending on the situation). As someone pointed out above, all homosexual sex is done outside of marriage. That’s marriage in the religious (biblical) sense, not in the secular civil contract sense. But that’s an “is”, not a “why”.
According to the gospels, even lusting after someone is a sin, even if you don’t actually carry out those lustful thoughts physically, because you had that person in your heart. That goes for heterosexual as well as homosexual, by the way. This goes to the idolatry thing mentioned above. Your passion, focus, and intent (and the thing you seek to fulfill your needs) is on something other than God. This is why Paul wrote that young men should stay celibate if they can, but to get married if they must, to avoid burning in lust. From this, some theological traditions carry their doctrines that sex is entirely for reproduction, and not for personal pleasure. That’s more of a why, but obviously, A LOT of christian traditions don’t carry that, or don’t carry it as far as others.
In this sense, sin *is* a state of being, and the actions are merely the outward manifestation of that inner state, that Paul calls the flesh, or human nature in the same way that righteous acts are the outward manifestation of a regenerated or spirit-filled state. From this, the Bible says that you can discern what type of tree someone is by what fruit they produce. Of course, even the most pious christian still has sin nature this side of heaven which manifests itsself in a variety of ways from person to person. There are plenty of examples of people who live their lives with only a prevenient smattering of the fruits of the holy spirit.
Next, all sexual immorality is forbidden in the christian theological tradition, not just homosexuality. That’s an is not a why again, so to speculate on the why, one might look in Genesis for the whole ‘god created man’ thing, and god created woman from man to be man’s companion, and set the natural order for them to reproduce (go forth and multiply). Therefore acts outside of God’s created order are sinful (and yes, that goes for any sin, not just homosexuality). This is the famous “adam and eve, not adam and steve” bit. /flanders
You could also try to make a case against defiling the temple of God. The human as a person is made in the image of God, and the believer, specifically, is the temple of the indwelling holy spirit. According to the bible, desecrating that temple is a sin. Homosexuality (and other sexual immorality)(and other physical sins involving the body) are desecrations of the temple.
The natural/evolutionary argument (which doesn’t even require you to be christian)(but some are strong advocates of natural order being related to, if not derived directly from God’s commandments) is that sex with the opposite sex creates offspring, which provides a survival advantage. Sexual activity that does not produce offspring is inherrently evolutionarily disadvantageous. A society of all-homosexual species would be naturally selected against, and become extinct due to failure to reproduce.
Why is homosexuality a sin? the same reason why anything else is. Not because the Bible says so, that’s legalism. Sin is anything that goes against the very nature, person, purity and character of God.
Homosexuality is deemed as an impure act and God is pure, that’s why it is sin. Lying is being untruthful and Jesus (God) is truth, that’s why lying is sin. Murder is the the destruction of life and Jesus is and came to bring Life, that’s why murder is sin.
Hi Anne,
Thank you for asking this question and asking people to step away from their easy answers. As a gay Christian in a committed relationship, one of the things that most struck me about many of the comments was that most of them were made from brothers and sisters in Christ who have not had to struggle with reconciling their innate identity with with the Bible or with many of the current teachings popular in the Christian community. Many comments have included the sentiment that homosexuality is not a sin–it is just acting on your homosexuality that is a sin. I appreciate this step forward in understanding gay and lesbian issues in the Church. However, I think that it is all much harder to disconnect than that… to me, it is like telling a red headed person that that it is OK to have red hair as long as they wear a hat at all times or that it is OK for a person to be left-handed as long as they write with their right hand. I firmly believe that the Holy Spirit has taught me that my sexual identity is as much a part of my being as my brown hair and brown eyes and left-handedness. God made me and it was good.
I know what the Bible has been interpreted to say about homosexuality. I also know what the Bible has been interpreted to say about polygamy, slavery, the subjugation of women, and war. I definitely don’t want to enter in to an argument about the sola scriptura here–but I think that it is fair to say that we all accept that some of the things that are discussed in the Bible as sin or as righteous are not applicable in 2009 America. Take a look at http://www.godhatesshrimp.com.
For a great discussion about the lives of gay and lesbian Christians, take a couple of hours to watch the documentary For The Bible Tells Me So. Even if you think that everything I just said was complete self-delusion–watch the movie with an open mind and consider the ways that we can all support our fellow believers.
So yeah… Once again, thanks for opening up this discussion to this community. Grace and peace.
I don’t have anything to add to the “why” question either, but my husband and I were studying James 1:1-12 this morning, and I thought it was very applicable to this conversation and to encourage anyone who is wrestling with trials and the question of why.
James says to embrace trials cheerfully (certainly not always easy, but a decision we must make based on believing that God is who he says he is) because we know that the “testing of our faith” (or wrestling with it) develops perseverance and maturity. The study we were reading this morning (“Be Mature” by Warren W. Wiersbe) says this: “The mature person does not argue with God’s will; instead, he accepts it willingly and obeys it joyfully…If we go through trials without surrendered wills, we will end up more like immature children than mature adults.” We do not always know why, but we do know that God is holy and righteous and that no matter what our struggles, he has plans to give us a future and to prosper us rather than harm us (Jer. 29:11). That is reason enough to follow God’s Word, even with lingering questions of “why.”
Finally, James says to ask God for wisdom with the absolute faith that he will provide it. Homosexuality is not my trial, but I pray for your friend and any others with this struggle that they will ask and receive God’s wisdom. I believe it will come with obedience, which God always rewards, often in ways we would never have even imagined. Then when those rewards come, we can say from our own experience, “Ah. This is just one reason why.” God is good. We all have our own struggles and resulting wisdom to share. I pray that one day your friend will be able to share her wisdom with all of us!
I haven’t had a chance to read all the previous comments, but several of the early ones talk about how “being gay” itself is not a sin but only living out the gay lifestyle is.
I disagree.
It’s important to remember how Jesus interpreted the law.
Matthew 5:27-28. “You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
He is saying that sin is not only an outward action but also an inward heart issue.
As to WHY being gay is a sin, well, short of having to give an account for the nature of God, that question is best answered by saying that He puts certain limits on human behavior/choices/etc. for good reason. Often it is to protect us from ourselves, but always it’s because He is holy (separate) and chooses not to be in the presence of our sin–as he defines it.
Or said more simply: because God said so.
I haven’t read every comment but just glancing through noticed that I won’t be the first to say that “being gay” isn’t, in and of itself, sin. Having a personal and ongoing inward struggle that doesn’t translate into outward actions doesn’t seem to qualify as sin – call it temptation, call it a struggle, call it dangerous even, but don’t call it sin. Although, even after I write that I’m wondering about what Jesus said about lust – it’s inward, private, and a struggle (or is it an indulgence?) and he called that adultery which is sin. So it starts in the heart – is the heart for God or for something else first?
This made sense to me at least: An alcoholic has a personal struggle to battle the behavior of drinking too much and becoming drunk. The battle isn’t sin. The label “alcoholic” isn’t sin – but it does indicate a potential tendency to fall into (or willfully step into) that particular sinful behavior. People can’t label someone gay unless they see gay behavior – we can’t label someone a gossip unless we witness it, same with pride, etc. Even so, should someone feel gay or label themselves gay, are we right to assume that they’ve chosen to live that way, act that way, behave that way, or might they simply be stating their struggle while at the same time maintaining their purity?
You mentioned your friend has decided the gay lifestyle is not for her. Sounds to me like she’s trying to honor God through her “struggle”. She’s being honest (which is more than a lot of so-called Christians can say) and is still choosing to follow Christ.
Thanks for starting the conversation – I’l be wrestling with this for a while I’m sure.
I like what Emily said: “We all struggle with one thing or another. It?s what we do with the struggling that matters.” I think it all started with Adam and Eve and sin itself. Sin comes in all types of packages and we are born into this world with a fleshy sinful nature that we must fight against. The Bible talks about this battle in the New Testament. I forget which verse though. At least your friend is acknowledging the struggle because that’s the best place to start. Our struggles make us take a good look at our frailty and how much we need God to survive and to truly live, be fully alive and not merely existing. There a lot of questions I don’t have answers to and even when I do it can still be hard to accept what those answers require.
“Becoming Israel” I hope you never give up on your quest to follow God. Maybe the harder the struggle and the more we stay on course, the bigger the reward in Heaven. Maybe God knows just how strong you are so keep pressing on!
Anne – thanks for talking about this. It is a conversation that MUST occur in todays society.
Now, let me say this. I do not struggle with homosexuality, but I AM in a same sex relationship.
I did a LOT of praying, reading, listening, talking, question asking, etc…when I first realized that I was attracted to people of the same sex. I came to many realizations that I am secure in and I struggle with this no longer.
I am secure in the fact that Jesus Christ loves me and died to forgive me of my sins.
I am secure in the fact that the Holy Spirit convicts me of my sins.
I am secure in the fact that God is the author of love.
I am secure in the truth of the Bible.
We can not create love. We also can not diminish love. The only way we can love someone is by the grace of God. The only way that we can stop loving someone is if we sin by not forgiving. Just think of the person that you love the most on this earth – be it your husband, wife, sister, brother, mother, father, son, or daughter. Could you stop loving them if I asked you to? Of course not. Well, that is the way it is with me and my partner of almost 5 years. I love her and she loves me. We put each other second only to God. We both love God. We worship together, serve in our local church, and our MOST common desire is to reach others for Jesus. Our relationship is not based on lust or sex. In fact, it is a task for us to have a physical relationship because of our schedules. Our relationship is based on mutual trust, love, service, and committment. None of those things are sin. I believe that God is the author of the love that I have for her and that she has for me. If He is the author of the love that we feel, then how can it be sin?
I believe the Holy Spirit convicts me of my sins because I feel conviction for things that I do everyday, but loving and cherishing her is not one of those things. Once I became secure is Christ’s love for me, my desire to make people happy and please them diminished. The more secure you become in Christs love, the less people’s opinions matter. It is not society that i have to please, it’s the ONE who loves me MOST and knows me BEST that I am to please.
I believe the Bible is true, but I believe it is contextually true, and has been misinterpreted, on many levels, for years on this issue. Refer back to Chad in post 15. He’s right on. The relationships of that time are not the relationships of today. Those relationships were abusive and controlling and that type of relationship is still not accepted today. Those relationships were adult to child and that type of relationship still isn’t acceptable today. My relationship is NOTHING like the relationships of that day. It is totally different, so it can’t be compared. CONTEXT is the most important part.
For those who say it is ‘unnatural’, so is being left handed, being blind, and being deaf. In Bible times, blind people and deaf people were outcasts. They were viewed as sinners who were being punished. They were rejected by society and rejected by the priests. We know today that being blind and being deaf is no more unnatural than having blonde hair.
People used to think that left handed people were unnatural and that they had to make them into right handed people. Again, we know today that this is totally natural.
We are on the same cusp with homosexuality. Used to be viewed as unnatural and we’re going to find that it is natural.
How many times does the church have to screw this up? The church is the number one organization that passes judgement and punishes or limits people in what they are allowed to do and years down the road the church figures out that it was wrong.
Think back to slaves, blacks in churches and church leadership, women in leadership, etc… When will we learn?!?! How long will it take us to figure out that our judgement is our number one sin? How many people will suffer and end up in hell because our church is so judgemental and tells them they are so wrong that they never hear about the true love of Jesus?
It never ceases to amaze me how many people don’t have a clue what they are talking about, but they choose to have an opinion on it. Those of you who don’t feel love for someone of the same sex like I do, how can you judge how true and God-given and God honoring that love is? Really think about that. Don’t dismiss it because you may be dismissing someone from the Kingdom that you will be held accountable for on the day of judgement because you gave up the opportunity to love them like Jesus.
As a church, why don’t we stop judging people and just LOVE THEM. If they are not TRULY gay, then they will be convicted of that by the Holy Spirit. If their relationship is unhealthy, the Holy Spirit will convict them of that. Conviction is not our job…it’s the Holy Spirits job.
When will we learn?
So, Anne, I don’t believe a committed, loving, respecting, God-centered same-sex relationship is sin…whether they have a physical relationship or not.
maybe we should look at it backwards.
why isn’t not being gay not a sin?
I think sometimes when we have a “sin” tendency in life, like we all do, sometimes it is hard to see first that it is a sin, because it feels right and secondly we don’t understand why God wouldn’t want us to be happy.
Without the generic answers of how God created men and women and all that blah blah I see homosexuality equal to gossip, lying, cheating, etc. It’s a sin. Now, it’s a little different because it is a lifestyle choice, although if you are a habitual liar or cheat then that’s a lifestyle choice as well.
God loves us. He wants the best for us. And he desires for our hearts, minds and bodies to be pure. Is this easy? No. I struggle with being pure in all areas because the world so easily wants us to be “in” it. Some struggle with alcoholism, some with pornography, others with lust, lying, gossiping, swearing, being deceitful, etc.
I like what Rick Warren had to say. “We all have biological predispositions, some people struggle with anger and some don’t. Many gay friends of mine have asked, why shouldn’t I have multiple partners; it’s the natural thing to do. Just because it seems natural doesn’t mean it’s best for you or for society. I naturally inclined to have sex with every beautiful woman I see, but that doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do. People say, you shouldn’t have to reign them in and I disagree, that’s part of maturity is reigning in our natural impulses. I think it’s part of delayed gratification, part of character…”
I am torn over this issue and in my relationships with gay people am humbly trying to lean toward love rather than condemnation, which is so easy for us. It’s encouraging to see other Christians try do the same.
I wish I knew whether being gay is a sin, and if it is, why, although I do believe that it’s not as clear cut as many followers of Christ consider it to be.
I hope it’s not a faux-pas to post a resource here in the comments, but I found the first part of this interview with the NT scholar NT Wright helpful in working this out from a theological perspective:
http://www.nationalcatholicreporter.org/word/wright.htm
Ok…I just typed a whole comment and it didn’t post. Did I lose it, can if so, I’m gonna be upset.
Same thing for me V…
Sorry there were a few that went to spam. I approved them.
A lot of what I would say has already been said: 1) That homosexuality is called a sin against one’s own body, and 2) that the way God created a world with both male and female is part of a picture of His own glory.
One of the Hebrew words we translate as “sin” also translates as “missing the mark.” Which says to me that sin is not about following a set of rules, but aiming correctly.
I would add to those that having gay feelings is usually a symptom of some other very deep relational pain. Usually that pain has to do with the gay person’s father, especially in the case of gay men. I am sorry to put it so bluntly when I know that your friend is going to be reading this, but, she should probably find a good Christian counselor and talk about whatever that pain is. That is not an accusation of her weakness or anything, just a friendly recommendation. Heck, everybody, gay or not, has some relational pain they probably need to be talking about with someone.
Probe Ministries has some great reading about faith and homosexuality here: http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4465835/k.9241/Homosexuality.htm
Sue Bohlin is a personal friend of mine, so I can highly recommend what she’s written because I know her integrity.
Not sure that I can add anything to the discussion, but I will share what I have learned and understand.
I think the folks who said “being gay is not a sin” are correct.
As for why the actions get labeled a sin, I look to context. In Leviticus, the rules are being made against those things that do not follow “order”. “A man shall not lie with another man as a woman” brings two difficulties in “order” to the fore. First two men together breaks the “Adam and Eve” notion, the second that one of them is behaving as a “woman” also creates a conundrum of “order”.
When lesbian sex is mentioned, we face up to the reality that women were property and so to have lesbian sex was two pieces of property having sex that was not allowed by the property owners, and if it had been would amount to adultery.
As for when Paul decries homosexual behavior, the affront addressed was against two big ruptures of relationship in Paul’s world. First, he is adamant that the Temple is not a place to be defiled, and sexual intercourse is defiling to the Temple, as it creates some “ritually unclean” effects. To do so in the presence of the Temple is to make the Temple ritually unclean as well. Second, Paul is angry with the use of prostitution as the means by which this takes place, as it breaks the laws of cleanliness, as well as creating a situation by which one person is made to be less than another in an unordered way. This was unconscionable for these reasons.
The laws were made leaning nothing on “love” but in the practices which stood outside the norm, broke property laws, and dissolved the “order” of the time.
I offer not judgment in this, merely the telling of “why” as requested to the best of my knowledge and ability.
Peace,
David
Thanks, Anne, for posing the ?. I, too, have friends and relatives who are gay. I also lost a friend who was gay, and it was horrible. However, just before he died, the pastor who was his pastor when he was growing up, came to him and shared with him that his lifestyle (which was a lifestyle of sin, according to the Bible) was no worse sin that any sin that any of us commit. The Word says that if any of us looks upon another with lust in our heart we have already committed the act.,…if any of us looks at another with hate in our heart we have already committee murder (not in man’s eyes, because man “rates” severity of sin, even in our court system; God doesn’t! sin is sin is sin, it’s all black, it’s all bad, and He cannot look upon it!) However, there is only 1 sin He will not forgive and that is the sin of not claiming Him as Lord of one’s life. That, too, is Scriptural. In answer to your question of the post, the One it hurts is God, who gave us His Word as our life guidebook, and in that book He tells us how to live and how not to…and what the consequences are. GOD HATES SIN….BUT…HE LOVES THE SINNER! Praise the Lord, or we’d all be doomed to hell! God doesn’t make mistakes; He did not create us in error. Upon conception the human being formed is either an xx or and xy…male or female. That’s not a mistake. That’s God’s plan. God is a REDEEMER of ALL sin….but one has to want to: acknowledge that homosexuality IS a sin; has to want to be released from that sin; has to be willing to allow God to do whatever it takes to release him/her from that sin, no matter how difficult, and seek whatever help is necessary for however long is necessary; and be wiling to walk away from any and all relationships that may cause him/her to stumble. Like any person struggling with any sin, one must realize that this may always be an area of temptation and struggle but we serve a God who experienced any and everything any of us experienced, and Scripture says that with each area He provides a way of escape. So, for each of us, no matter the sin,. it’s there for the asking. We may have to dig DEEP into the WORD all day every day for a while; our knees may be raw from bowing before Him in humility, crying out for release and relief, in total faith in His ability; it may take disciplining our selves to walk away from those situations that are leading us to places that hurt the Lord….but He is faithful to His Word and HE WILL when WE CAN’T. Try Him and see. Oh, how God loves the homosexual, just as He loves those of us who are not homosexual….He cannot and will not look upon any of our sins, as by His very nature He cannot and He won’t….but He loves us just the same, and we are commanded to love one another “with the love of Christ”. So, we are not the judge, we are not to condemn (God does all of that); yet we are to speak the truth in love to one another. So, perhaps ask yourself (everyone reading this) and perhaps ask the homosexual, this ?: If you die tonight, and face your Maker, will you hear “Well done, good and faithful servant. Enter into my Kingdom”….or will you hear something like, “Why did you not let me make you into whom I intended for you to be? I never knew you! Be gone!”, and live a life of eternal hell. Each of us has only ourselves to answer that question for. He comes like a thief in the night and we all better be prepared. Being devisive will not please Him either; speaking the truth totally in love, and being His mouthpiece, does please Him…and through it all He knows the motive of our heart. Thanks for allowing this novel to be posted on your blog! :-)
>being tempted – not a sin
>acting on that temptation – sin
for some reason Christians think gay temptation is different than any other temptation, or that is is not real
Ok, I haven’t read through all of this but this is what is running through my head.
1st: What is the original sin?
Answer: Wanting to be God of our own lives and not live by his rules. Rules are put into place to protect us from destruction.
2nd: Eve was seeking wisdom from her own means.
Isn’t this the same logic that is being applied here.
3rd: If we love God with all our hearts and all our might, wouldn’t going against his will for our lives be a sin? I think so.
4th: So the conclusion that I come to is the root of this lies in the very beginning of the story. It is a matter of trust and willingness to let God create us then shape us into the tools he wants us to be. I don’t see a tendency towards homosexuality as anything more or less than a very visual expression of the decision to choose self over God. There for imagine the teaching and understanding of love that can come from someone who overcomes this obstacle in live. We all have obstacles these are the things that God shapes us with.
Anne,
I have to agree with response #2, that this is a hard one to do online, not being able to look people in the eye.
The church I pastor has relatively many who have influenced my gay lifestyle. Some who have been closely connected to our ministry have struggled with “same sex attractions”. One such friend, who claims to have NEVER been attracted to a woman states that he considers himself not a “homosexual” (as in the noun), but rather as a redeemed child of God, living in an unredeemed body, prone to “same sex passions”, which like any other sinful lust, need to be battled against. I have great respect for this guy….he considers it sin! Sin, that needs to be mortified (old Puritan word for, murdered) daily.
God has given him an amazing ministry with those who live under the shadow of this sin.
Great question. I have family members who are gay and the question I keep wondering is why this is the ”big thing’ now? Who is the church going to go after once this is settled? If we spent as much time and energy (and money) going after poverty, homelessness, hunger… as we do going after homesexuality, how much better could we do?
next round…
If God IS Love and we can’t love God by keeping his directives for our lives….
then do we know how to love at all without loving Him first?
Anne – I’m so glad that you have posted this. I seriously admire your friends courage as well – I think that it is so important for people to recognize and vocalize their trials so that they can work through it in community (aka so that people can truly be the church). I posted that to your friend as well.
I don’t have time to go indepth with my reasonings (I also have not even formulated any answers in my mind as to why homosexuality is a sin – it is so dang difficult to truly get down to the SPECIFIC reason!!), but I did have something to say really quickly about it.
My boyfriend did a paper about this very topic and as we talked through the things that he was going to write about, we got extremely frustrated with the way that homosexuality was treated in society (and in churches) today. It’s like homosexuality is SO much worse than things like divorce; lying; having an affair when that is not even biblical. All sin is equally punishable, and it just really frustrates me to see that some people are so okay with accepting divorced people/habitual liars into their communities and churches yet some completely and openly condemn gay people and want NOTHING to do with them. It just hurts me to see that people are being so mistreated because of the things that they are dealing with when all in all we should be reaching out to them just like we reach out to any of our brothers and sisters. It’s definitely one of my “soapboxes” or whatever you’d like to call it. I just had to put that in there somewhere. It may not be applicable but there you have it!
I love these comments so far. I think that it’s an amazing collection of intelligent and thought provoking answers. The blog community is such a blessing. Thanks again for hosting discussions like this.
-Kayla Grace
It’s interesting too that the Bible only mentions homosexuality in terms of behaviour, not in terms of an identity thing. We are the ones who have decided that’s how you are and the world tells us you can’t change it.
I don’t know what to say other than Sy Rogers is an amazing guy who actually almost became a woman through surgery. I would point her in the direction of someone like that to be encouraged firstly, but also get some strategies for moving ahead. I also think that God lives you regardless of your behaviour and I know for example, that Sy was saved through a gay couple that he knew and their faith.
I love that many of these answers are both Scriptural and compassionate. As a believer, an author, in ministry, and also the sister of a gay man I pray that my brother will receive love from Christians rather than a sign that says, “God hates…”.
When my brother and I talk, I ask him to shut me out, to shut out the voice of others speaking in his ear about what is right or not, and to begin to seek God and let Him be the transformer of his life.
Just like he did for me for my sin. Just like he did for a million others.
For now, I’m called to love my brother for who he is — Ron. To not raise his sin above the status of my own, pride or arrogance or gossip. And to let the God of all the Earth and Heavens reveal Himself to my beautiful brother.
Putting aside sin, no matter what it is, is a daily challenge. Knowing God intimately and discovering what He can do in our hearts is a worthy journey.
Perhaps that’s the real discussion. Why we allow sin of any kind to separate us from discovering what God can and will do in a submitted life.
Thanks, Anne, for another great discussion.
Ok…try this again…shorter this time.
I do not struggle with homosexuality, but I am in a same-sex relationship.
I did a lot of question asking, praying, reading, studying, listening, searching, etc…when I figured out that I loved someone of the same sex, and I came up with some things that I am secure in. As I have become secure in these things, my need to please people has diminished. My desire to please the ONE who knows me best and loves me most has increased.
I am secure in the fact that Jesus Christ loves me and died to forgive me of my sins.
I am secure in the fact that the Holy Spirit convicts me of my sins.
I am secure in the truth of the Bible.
I am secure in the fact that God is the author of love.
I am convicted of sins every day, but loving my partner of almost 5 years is not one of the things I am convicted of. We are not in a sex or lust based relationship. In fact, we struggle to have a physical relationship due to our schedules. We are in a relationship based on mutual trust, love, acceptance, committment, service, and gratitude. I would go as far as to say that we are one of the happiest couples I know…hetero or homo sexual. It is God-honoring and God-centered.
We both worship together, serve in our local church, and our MOST common desire is to reach people for Jesus.
I believe that Scripture is true contextually. I do believe that the Bible has been misinterpreted, on many levels, for many years…especially on this issue. Post #15 is right on. The relationships that were occurring in Bible times were not relationships like the one that I am in. They were abusive, controlling, and adult-to-child. Those relationships are still condemned today. They can’t be compared to the relationship that I am in, nor can they be judged the same.
I believe that God is the author of all love. We can not create nor can we diminish love. The only way we can love is by the grace of God. If I told you that you had to stop loving someone, you couldn’t without hate or unforgiveness in your heart. If God is the author of love, then how can it be sin?
For those of you who say that homosexuality is unnatural – the church used to think that blind and deaf people were sinners who were being punished and they were outcast because they were ‘not natural’. The world also thought that left handed people were unnatural and tried to MAKE them be right handed.
We now KNOW that none of those things are true and that they are all natural, but the church outcast those people for many years before they realized they were wrong. They also did the same thing with slavery, blacks, and women in ministry. Since then, we have realized that all of these people are capable of spreading the message of Christ and that they are of no less value than a blonde haired blue eyes white heterosexual man or woman in good health. Jesus loves us ALL the same and the church should too!
How long will it take the church to realize that our judgement is our number one sin? We reject, judge, and condemn people that aren’t ‘like us” and then years down the road we have to appologize because we are DEAD WRONG. We are on that same cusp with homosexuality.
We, as the church, should just LOVE PEOPLE. Leave the judgement and conviction up to the Holy Spirit. If they are gay and shouldn’t be, the Holy Spirit will convict them. If they are in a bad realtionship, the Holy Spirit will convict them. It shouldn’t matter to us whether it is right or wrong because our job isn’t to decide that. Our job is to LOVE THEM and let God do the rest.
So, Anne, I don’t believe that a loving, committed, respecting, God-honoring, monogomous same-sex relationship is sin…whether or not they have a physical relationship – unless the Holy Spirit convicts them that they are wrong.
I also don’t believe that people who haven’t experienced love for someone of the same sex can even come NEAR understanding how real and natural that experience is for those of us who are gay. It’s not some “freak” thing. I experience Jesus in my relationship with my partner and it is VERY real. More real than any other relationship I have ever had with another human…so God doesn’t just reveal himself in a heterosexual relationship. He reveals Himself in homosexual relationships too.
Thanks, Anne, for bringing the conversation. It’s VERY important today because many many people are being rejeced and judged by the church unjustly and we lose ground for the Kingdom EVERY TIME that happens. It’s COUNTER productive. We need to learn that.
Oh and a friend of mine who had been mostly in homosexual relationships became a Christian about two years ago and he’s now engaged! But the important thing for him was being accepted, some people found it so weird that I was so accepting of him (I’d been a friend for a long time and tried to witness to him through my life). I’m not sure why Christians expect “gay” people to be perfect before they can come to church, but don’t worry quite the same about any other sin issue. I personally think rejection is probably a huge issue for a lot of people in that lifestyle so we shouldn’t add to it.
And this generation coming on are far more relaxed about sexuality than anyone older, so chances are there are a lot of people with sexuality issues sitting in our pews anway.
one more suggestion to my lengthy post….please encourage everyone to visit Dennis Jernigans site and read his testimony. http://www.dennisjernigan.com/djs-story
It is an incredible story of redemption for the homosexual lifestyle…AND…his music is amazing
@Vince: “>being tempted – not a sin
>acting on that temptation – sin
for some reason Christians think gay temptation is different than any other temptation, or that is is not real”
Several people have pointed to Matthew 5.27-28 to back up their stance that “being gay” is, in fact, a sinful state of being.
Here’s my counter-stance. Jesus was talking to the Pharisees here, who had set strict rules that no one but themselves could keep. So he took it a few notches higher. He played their game and showed that NO ONE can obey the law in its entirety.
Enter Grace.
Grace says, “I love and accept you with all of your flaws.”
Grace says, “Your mistakes and failures prove that I am, in fact, more powerful than you can imagine.”
Grace says, “Stop trying to fix yourself. I’ve already fixed you.”
So, Vince, I agree with you. Is it a sin for me to admire my girlfriend’s beauty? Is it a sin to dwell on the thought that her body is a magnificent piece of art designed by the Master Artist’s brush? I choose to say, “Not at all.” And I’m fairly certain most of you would agree.
But, if I were to take those thoughts further, playing out scenarios in my mind of us acting out our sexuality, I’ve crossed the line into sin.
Sex was designed to be a joyful act of self-giving. A self-gratifying thought life is (at the risk of redundance) selfish. It puts myself first. If sex is an act of giving, then any sexual act that is self-gratifying is an act of taking.
So, in my example with my girlfriend, any impure thoughts about her are actually stealing from her. I’m taking what I want from her, and not sharing anything with her. I’m using her beauty to get what I want—sexual pleasure—without giving thought to her needs and desires.
Crap! Hey, Anne, could you check your spambox for my last comment?
Anne you said: “I hope I never stop asking why. I think it is the only way to keep growing, and having God guide you.”
I agree with you. The real issue is though: are we willing to accept God’s answer? If we truly believe that we have an all-loving God who wants and knows what is best for us, shouldn’t we listen to what He tells us? This is a question that has been on my mind over the last while . . .
I think that your question goes deeper than what many are responding to because the answer (for believers) is that God knows what is best for you and he warns us against homosexuality.
I think that you (and your friend) are saying, “yea, we know that, but why (does he warn us against homosexuality)?” (If I missed it – you can stop reading here and know that another Nashvillian is praying for you). If this is correct, then I feel as if you are asking flawed human minds to explain God’s intention when he created us – back to Job – “where you there?” – I (personally) take this as why are you trying to pretend like you know? So, I would probably agree that there are many things that we simply do not know (at our current time and situation for reasons unknown(?)…sorry another unknown…) my thought – because God’s mind is perfect and ours aren’t.
I ask why often and believe that it is important to do so if you have a “why”-otherwise you aren’t being real. Many of the answers for my “why” questions have been satisfied through prayer and reading of the Word – so this would be my personal recommendation – sorry if it does not satisfy.
Hope it helped – God bless.
Greetings,
My thoughts on the issue. I am not a scholar, but I do have a degree in Christian Education.
I feel that the people of Israel were trying to maintain a population following their escape from Egypt and desert wanderings. God and Moses gave this set of laws partially to help maintain a population. If two men or two women were in a relationship, offspring would generally not be produced. So, therefore, homosexual acts were considered sinful, because it wasted the seed of a man and the womb of the woman.
Now that the population of the world is far from collapsing and science is now able to let gay couples have children, those rules have become old hat.
Plus, in a male run society, things that are different from what the males who are in charge want, is often considered blasphemy in their religion and thus throughout the ages interpreted as such.
Of course, if any part of your life is separating you from God or harming you relationship with God then you must examine that and determine if it is still worth maintaining as part of your life.
Thanks.
I haven’t had time to ready everone’s responses, nor even formulate my own yet. However, in my personal time w/God this morning I read this Scripture (follow the link) and I pray we all hear Jesus’ message in it as we seek to answer this particular question and others like it in the future. Personally, I think the issue of homosexuality is going to be one of the most relevant questions the Church will face in the upcoming years. I pray we all stand firm in the Truth but equally as firm in love towards those seeking Him.
http://www.youversion.com/net/Matt.23.13
P.S. I would humbly like to invite any and all to view my church’s message series that just began this past week entitle “True[ish]. It’s a timely message for this generation. http://www.lifechurch.tv/current-series
Why is any sin a sin? Because it is not God’s best for us.
I don’t know how much you can reason it away – His ways are not our ways. He knows what is best for us – there are some other things that the Bible says are sinful that I like to do: obsess about my appearance and spend all my money on expensive clothes, gossip about people behind their backs, sit around and eat brownies and pizza all day.
They’re fun, they feel good, but, in the end, they are not God’s best for me. And He, above all, knows what is best.
Y’know, now that I think about it, my pastor touched on this topic (very briefly) in his sermon last week called “Robbed by Religion.” Check it out at http://liquidchurch.com/
I don’t have all the answers, but this is an issue which touches me more than most. And I have a long answer :), but my short answer would be what many have already said – I’m not sure ‘being gay’ is a sin, but I think homosexual sex is a sin according to the Bible.
My long answer is I agree David George Montalvo and Josh (and many of the points made here). I think God’s nature and what He tells us about marriage are the real issues in discussing Christian views on sexual behavior. The covenant of marriage is a representation, even in some mysterious way a fulfillment, of the covenant relationship between Christ and the Church. And even the apostle Paul in all his brilliance considered it beyond his understanding. All sin is essentially a denial of the character of God, for we have been made in his image and are not meant to do these things, but I think somehow sins against the marriage covenant – premarital sex, adultery, homosexuality…divorce – are more blatant lies about who God is and what He has revealed to us about how He chooses to relate to us and how we are to relate to each other.
The ‘natural’ arguement is not entirely adequate to me – yes, it’s true you can argue about how our bodies are made, and how we need to produce offspring, but I think those are just natural physical realities that reflect the greater spiritual reality – and it’s the spiritual reality that we as Christians need to focus on.
Like others here, I don’t know if I this adequately expressed what I think about this, and I’m not saying I have all the answers, but our answers always have to be to look to God’s Word and His character, as best we can understand it.
God generally does not tell us why (cf. Job). He tells us who He is. And He asks that we trust Him.
I feel for Christians who struggle with homosexuality. To feel that their basic identity and natural desires have to be completely denied to live a Christian life. I don’t want to minimize their struggle or dismiss their pain in any way.
But I have to point out that that is what it means to be a Christian – we have to be willing to give up everything, to deny who we are, to forego all our natural rights, to take on the life that Christ modeled for us, and to obey the Word God has given to us. No matter how much it may hurt at the time. We have to die. Daily.
And many times God gives us back in this life everything we think we have to give up, and more. But sometomes He does not – and it’s easy to forget that in our worldly American Christian culture.
But God is still good, and we can trust Him with all that we are and all that we have and all that we will be.
Yes, homosexuality is a sin. In Genesis 2, we see that God ordained marriage between a man and a woman…the key here is GOD ordained it. Marriage is also a covenant and it is a picture of the covenant between Christ and his bride, the church. We cannot change that covenant, God makes all covenants and keeps them. Homosexuality seeks to change that covenant….and cannot. Homosexuality is a sin that satan uses because he hates God’s covenant. Do not be deceived by him.
John Piper recently wrote an excellent article that discusses issues pertaining to homosexuality and this is a scripture he quoted.
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves , nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)
The beautiful part of this for someone struggling with this sin is that the church in Corinth had people in it who had struggled with this sin…but look at the end of the passage….if you put your faith and trust in Christ “you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and the Spirit of our God.” He will help you overcome this sin. And no, it may not be switching off a light switch for you…it will take time. But trust the One who can help you overcome and see the covenant He created in marriage to be beautiful. The gospel, with its forgiveness and deliverance from homosexual practice, offers salvation.
John Piper gave a wonderful sermon on this subject which you can read at:
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/2004/177_Discerning_the_Will_of_God_Concerning_Homosexuality_and_Marriage/
which SPECIFICALLY addresses your question of “why”.
May the Lord Bless you and give you the answers you seek….I will be praying for you.
Don’t have time to read all 89 comments so what I say may have been said but to answer your question, why?
Being gay is a sin because it is a perversion of something good that God has given us…namely the gifts of sex and love. Actually all sin is a perversion of something good that God has given us. We are all born with a sin nature. We sin because we’re sinners. We are not sinners because we sin – if that makes sense.
Many people struggle with certain sins – drinking too much (called alcoholism in some circles), anxiety, depression, infidelity, anger, etc etc.
We were designed by God to worship Him. When we sin we worship other things which is ultimately self-worship. We are worshiping what makes us feel good: pleasure. If we have homosexual desires, by acting on those we are worshiping our own pleasures – our self. For a married couple, if we act on our sexual desires we will cheat on our spouse. For the drinker, if they act on their drinking desire they can ruin their life through alcohol. For a straight male, if we act on all of our sexual desires we sin through promiscuity.
Homosexuality is a sin because it is an acting out of a natural desire (natural does not always mean good) that we have because of our sin nature.
Thankfully, through Christ, and only through Christ are we able to put to death our natural sinful desires…whatever they may be.
I think you need to ask, what is biblical sex to get to the root.
True(ish)
God?s truth is black and white and even though there is no gray area, that?s where so many of us live today. We prefer to live by the concepts or facts we wish to be true, rather than those known to be true (i.e. the Bible Truth)… the gray area.
what we are seeing in the church is simply the Hegelian dialectic, otherwise known as blind relevance – therfore, the relevant/emergent church
let me emphasize to the holy rollers who throw stones – love the sinner , hate the sin mantra
Wow Anne. I think you just stumbled on another book topic for you! I haven’t had a chance to read every comment in full. I’m sure my thoughts here that I will write have been covered, but in case they haven’t –
I can’t answer the question. But what confuses me – I have a friend – a strongly committed Christian – who’s older brother was gay and sadly died of Aides. He was a wonderful man who was a talented graphic artist in NYC. His gay brother maintained to his death – that he never “chose” to be gay – in fact he would have rather NOT been gay. He maintained that from his earliest memories in life – he was attracted to men. An inborn trait that he could not “turn off” or choose not to have. He maintained that to the core of his being for him, being attracted to a woman was as repulsive as his (non gay) brother being attracted to men. So what is a person to do? While my brother totally accepted his gay brother and loved him till the end, I know this caused great internal confusion in his life over this issue and to this day, he leans more on the side that his brother was created gay rather than chose the lifestyle, and that there is something in the wiring of gay people that some cannot just turn away from.
Anyway, I don’t know where this leaves the discussion, but it sure is one thing about “God” that totally throws me for a loop. Lately with enough of these sorts of things that I’ve been pondering, it really makes ponder and question the whole essence of Christianity, God, why some of these issues have to have so many unanswered questions about them? Why is the Bible sometimes so vague? Why does this cause SO much division in our culture and society? Along with abortion? Women in ministry? If we have this truly sovereign and good God, WHY did He leave SO many of these issues in somewhat of a “gray” area that we essentially fight over? It just gets me mad, and it leaves me in the end, almost to the point of leaving my faith and Christianity behind in turn for what logic and common sense will provide me as having much better answers. So . . . . help?
Charlie: Understand your words. But what would you do if your very natural sexual feelings and attractions were completely reversed? What if you were unavoidably attracted to men, and repulsed by the thought of relationships and sex with women? What if this went back as far as you could possibly remember? What if this felt as inborn and natural to you as it does right now for you being attracted to women? What would you do? How would you deal with it?
John – I also have a gay friend and he was the first person to tell me “I would never be gay by choice – who would want to live this way?” – that was the first time my brain cracked a little on this subject.
btw – off the topic – you haven’t mentioned the honor your blog received! Congrats!
Anne, I have a number of gay friends as well and have had this conversation.
Bottom line is that our “feelings”, desires whatever NEVER trump God’s Word.
Period.
Jud: I think the problem is, we’re talking about something that is a WHOLE lot more than mere “feelings” or “desires.” I have sinful feelings and desires every day but I am more times than not able to curve myself away from those. I think what we’re talking about here is how someone is created to the core of their very being – in their DNA. How do you tell someone who since being an innocent child, with no good reason to have any leaning/influence what so ever to want to be gay, that these are mere feelings and desires that they should be able to turn away from? Put yourself in their shoes – reverse the role. I want YOU to turn away from your desire to like women and turn towards a desire to be attracted to men. What would you do? Could you do it?
A good question to put it this way: What do we do when we feel the entire way we are wired to the core of our being and DNA – something we’ve felt we have NO control over our entire life since being an innocent child who doesn’t even know the meaning of being gay or straight – what do we do when that goes directly against God’s word???
@ john – what if your desires were to be in a sexual relationship with every married woman you see – your lust was out of control, what if this went back to your teenage years chasing all skirts in middle school? what if you were simply unavoidably attracted to the pursuit of married women? what if havng sexual affiars with married women seemed as natural as being attracted to your wife? what would you do, how would you deal with it?
assuming (by your name) that you are male, let me ask you this:
if you were married toa woman, would you be OK with your best friend that has the traits above sleep with her regularly and openly, or would you consider that a sin
my friends – this is the best example of Hegelian dialectic i’ve seen in a long time
is it a sin for a gay man who is ‘married’ or has vowed to uphold the ‘marriage’ to have sex with another gay man?
My brother is gay and I have personally seen his struggles – especially with being raised in a (very loving) Christian family. We still love him unconditionally – nothing between us has changed.
But he hates himself for having these desires. He truly believes that God has abandoned him…why would God make him this way only to condemn it? I sometimes ask the same question. He also asked me “why would someone CHOOSE to live this way??”
Again, I think we’re talking about a whole LOT more than just desire. And I don’t think you truly understand this unless you’ve talked to someone in this situation face to face. We’re talking genetics and DNA here. I don’t think a prepubescent child in elementary school has strong desires to sleep with married women, lust that is out of control, chasing skirts, etc. as you allude to. These are usually more addictive patterns that grow over time for many reasons. A heterosexual can have healthy sexual drive, and then a sexual drive that is out of control and can turn sinful. A homosexual can have the same issues – a natural sexual drive, but directed towards members of the same sex. They can also have the same out of control sexual drive that can turn sinful. Many homosexuals have natural normal sexual drives – in fact, for many it has less to do with physical sex in the relationship in the end, just as married couples – the sex can tend to lessen as time goes on.
John and comment 102 – you realize you are a human and at our core we are all wired to fall short, to deal with fleshly desires and struggle in this lifetime to be faithful to the better way to live your life – pursuing Christ and his likeness in your life.
Just to be clear – I’m not gay. I’ve just read/studied a lot on the subject and, being an artist and creative type, have crossed paths many times with the subject. I really empathize with the subject and people dealing with this. (really resonate with you JudiFree.)
@ Kevin – again, we KEEP using the term desire. Does anyone get that we’re not talking about desire? Desire to me means there is a choice involved. Like I think someone alluded to earlier: Can you choose to be a red-head? A brunette? Black or white skin?
Yes, I think there are people that do choose to be gay/a gay lifestyle. But I think – well, I know – there are other conditions where it’s not that simple. My thought here is not to judge one way or the other. Only to underscore that it’s just not that simple as turning from one’s desire and as Christians, we need to find a way to deal with and come to terms that this is a fact of the situation. And so what do we do? Why is it this way? What do you tell a person in this situation?
Our DNA?
We all have it, it’s our sin nature. I don’t think it’s accurate to say that a homosexual has a greater (or lesser struggle for that matter) than a hetero who has a struggle with lust.
By even implying that you seem to be saying that a Homosexual is a greater sinner… which they are not.
Well I haven’t had time to read through all these posts, but I really love the challenge of these questions so I will respond.
1. God is a holy God. As a holy God He cannot tolerate unholy or nonholy things (I’m not a seminary grad so I apologize for the kindergarten linguistics). Ref Exodus 3:5,6 Isaiah 6:5-7 for what God’s holiness looks like.
2. God created man in his image. This must mean that God has a distinct idea of masculinity and feminity. Ref. The Creation account in Gensis 2
3. God created man with free choice. Why did he plop the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the middle of the garden and say “Don’t eat.”? Because he wanted to have a special relationship with us. He wanted it so that we would CHOOSE to have fellowship with him. Can you believe that? It sounds crazy just typing it out. The God who created the universe WANTS to have a relationship with us humans. (This is also why hollywood and our culture is infatuated with spirits and aliens. We want to believe that there is something out there larger than us that we can relate to.)
4. But as humans we screwed it up. We chose contrary to God. As a result children are born misfigured (no less loved of God and still God’s image), people are born with sexual addictions and make choices contrary to what God intended. But the best part…HE KNEW IT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN!!!! Holy Cow! He knew it and STILL decided to send his Son to pay the price. Jesus’ blood covers it all. Past, present, future. WHAT A MIRACLE!!! I’m a pastor, called by God to lead his people and I struggle with porn. An addiction that I was born with? IDK…All I know is that it is the grace of Jesus’ blood that carries me through my victories and my defeats.
I’m sorry I gotta go…..
So why is sin sin? Regardless of sexual sin, relational sin, etc…Because clearly has set out for us what life with him looks like. Life with him is holiness. Not only that but CHOOSING to be holy. How do we choose to be holy? We choose to allow the blood of Jesus to cover our sins, both past and future as well as present.
What I love is that Jesus said that we must have the faith of a little child to truly enter the kingdom of heaven. When I think about that in this context there is certainly an element of “Because God said so…” But I know its trite. I don’t like that answer either. I really really really want to be wise on these issues and have studied and prayed and thought about them much, but I feel like as I see more of who God is the less I know.
But it does bring me closer to my God. I’m not afraid of any question, or person or principle.There is one God who is in all, over all, and
I think if we haven’t, we should all read post #80 by V. Really interesting to me. V – if you’re still listening, I wonder, if I might ask, if you could give any insight as to your experience with the feelings you have had, how far they go back, and any choice in the matter you felt you have had vs. this being a desire that you could turn away from if you just “worked hard enough”? I think truly understanding the mindset of someone dealing with this provides a whole other layer of compassion, as it did for me when I started studying this. Obviously this is personal, and you don’t have to at all if you don’t wish. Just asking for others to understand further perhaps.
I am not gay but have studied and “stewed” over this topic.
Let me ask this to all who think it is a sin….
How many of you have really STUDIED the topic. Done a word study. Studied the scripture in context?
Maybe you should.
@ Jud – not sure if your last post was directed at me or not but if so, maybe you misunderstood. I wasn’t implying that at all – actually the exact opposite. That heterosexuals and homosexuals can have equally the same struggle with lust in exact similar ways within the confines of their opposite sex relationship or same sex relationship. Wasn’t implying that one is more of a sinner over the other for any reason.
@ John
I personally believe that God would not “wire” us in a way that is contrary to what He says.
I also think it is not possible for me to answer a “what if” here, but I do know that I would do all in my ability to “desire to attract men” IF this is what God said because I believe that God knows and wants what is best for me (I believe He knows even more than what I know, feel, desire, or “am”).
I believe that we do have the ability convince ourselves so deeply sometimes of one thing that we do not think there is another way (ie I hate that I am like this, but this is who I am, I cannot change. — I do not believe this, I believe that anything is possible through Christ.)
I think that you bring up really good points and appreciate you bringing them out into the open like this. I just wanted to give my humble opinion on them. God Bless.
@ Ron. Thanks Ron. I really appreciate those comments and take them to heart. I so want to believe those things too. I just really struggle with all I have seen and been close to in this area – and in other areas of my own life where I have faced different, but in some way similar issues and challenges with how and who God created me to be.
I’d like to pose another question.
Why is gossiping a sin? Why is being drunk a sin? Why is having sex outwith marriage a sin?
Why do we make such a huge big deal out of homosexuality but not so much about the other things?
There is so much of the bible I don’t understand, but I trust and have faith in God.
@john: “I don?t think a prepubescent child in elementary school has strong desires to sleep with married women, lust that is out of control, chasing skirts, etc. as you allude to. These are usually more addictive patterns that grow over time for many reasons”
i beg to differ – there are many, many instances of middle school boys sleeping with adult women – i know – i talk to them frequently. these boys have not had enough ‘life’ behind them to grow into, as you put it, that way of life. they claim they are wired that way at brith. they are sex addicts at 9-12 yrs old, they lust and literally chase their sister’s friends, and their mother’s friends, it is real – don’t discount it if you know not
my point is this : i would guess that most people on here think that this is a disgusting, disgusting truth – but it seems that only the gay community claims, and gets away with the statement, that they are ‘wired’ that way
this is because we have have simply moved from Truth to a synthesis of truth, does our society no longer tell the alcoholic to get sober, the murderer to not kill, the liar to tell truth, the theif to return, the adultere to stop wrecking homes and lives, the sinner to not sin?
why is the sin of being gay not a ‘real’ sin? but a tolerable “DNA issue” – don”t buy it
a gay person gets over their sin just like this (me) sinful person does – I want God to fix the problem, let go, and He does. He won’t if I don’t let go. hard to do sometimes? yes indeed – are sexual sins the hardest to let go, maybe so
Reminds me of this conversation… http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/2008/09/ray-boltz-comes-out/
Anne,
I remember reading your comments on the Ragamuffin Soul post a few months ago and being very impressed…
“i have a couple of friends who are gay and show the love of christ in amazing ways.”
Rock on.
someone may have already posted this… I don’t know.
http://www.exodus-international.org/
Anne -
Thanks for the thoughtful topic. I have wrestled with this myself…like most I have friends and fam who are on the same path. Hate to do this, but I can’t leave all of my comments here, it wouldn’t be kind to your readers. Should they wish to see a lengthy response to your question, they can visit my blog at http://www.thischangesnothing.com. If you don’t want gratuitous plugs in your comments section, I will understand if you delete. Blessings!
@Michael: I throw in gratuitous plugs all the time!
Anne,
The answer is simple while the comprehension is complex.
You wrote ” ‘Because you?re hurting yourself’ isn?t the answer either. When you?re gay, you love, just as straight people love. You want the best for someone. Someone wants the best for you.”
Actually this is a deceptive statement. While I would agree that two gay people want the best for each other they are obviously not committed to God’s best for each other. God’s best as outlined in the Bible is a man and a woman.
When you are gay you do not love as the straight couple loves in God’s eyes. Why I don’t know. I guess I am not smart enough to understand, but I do know from life experience that when I follow the commands that God has outlined in the Bible my life is much richer.
Having these experiences have deepened my faith to believe the things that God says, even things I cannot comprehend.
I would guess that the biggest thing your friend is struggling with is her worth in the sight of God, and why God would allow her to be this way.
First God didn’t make her this way, anymore then He created murderers and adulterers, etc. it’s just a result of a fallen mankind.
Second God loves her right now right where she is and it is very important to remember that God isn’t here to condemn you but to save you, and yes you are worth “saving” and “saveable”
John 3:16-18 says this “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”
Finally God wants the very best for her.
Why is being gay a sin? Because the Bible says so. This IS the correct answer especially taken in the context that God loves us so much and wants the very best life for us. Things that are sins are not the things God wants in our lives. He asks for obedience and in return offers His best. He is not trying to condemn us.
Frankly though I think that her problem at the moment is not her being gay at all, but a questioning of her faith. I think that if she truly finds the heart of God through time spent with Him in meditation and the study of scripture, that God will lead her to the answers that she seeks.
Many people have posted tremendous answers with great scripture references to back them up, but in the end it comes down to one simple concept, you believe God to be who he says and you decide to honor Him, or you don’t.
If you believe God to be who he says He is, you will see the value of the answers from scripture presented in many of the responses here, If you question if God is who He says He is, then I doubt much of this will have any real value to you and you will rationalize it away in an act of rebellion or denial. Ultimately it is about your perspective and belief or non-belief in God.
I once asked a friend this question, “If I believe and love God, but I don’t do what he asks of me, do I truly love Him?” The response I got was shocking to me. He said “I think you believe in God but I don’t think you really love God, for if you truly loved God you would keep his commandments.”
Keeping God’s commandments are hard. I know I struggle with it everyday but it is an act of love to God. It is your decision as love is a choice you make and not an emotional feeling.
Blessings on your journey of love! I believe you are on your way.
John – I’m still here. Left for a while but came back.
My experience in a nut shell –
I ALWAYS knew I was different…and so did my classmates and family. I can’t remember a time that I felt the same as all the other girls talked about feeling.
Goes AS FAR BACK as I can remember.
I’ve been churched almost all my life. Always heard “homosexuality is sin…going to hell…abomination…etc…”
Never really dated because I wasn’t attracted to the boys the same way the other girls were, but wasn’t attracted to girls either. Just hung out with my friends and prayed for my future husband. Got into high school….dated two boys. Didn’t feel right. Wasn’t who I was. Relationships crumbled as most high school relationships do.
Got into college….still not attracted to girls or boys. Just kinda asexual. Prayed for my future husband and family cause I figured it would come someday.
Got out of college and got a great job. Also started a business. Fell IN LOVE with my business partner, who happened to be a woman. Been with her ever since. Never felt like it was a choice, but went through a lot of dark nights worried that it might be sin because that was what I always heard. Asked God to stop blessing me and to convict me loudly if I was wrong. Never has happened. Never once felt like I was doing anything against Gods will for me. Not an OUNCE of conviction. Still pray the same thing. If I am wrong….convict me. He blesses me more and more every time I pray that. I believe most gays feel “convicted” because of society…not the Holy Spirit.
However, I do also feel that some people choose to try gay relationships because they are hurt or curious. I believe those situations are sin in most cases. I think love is more than pain or curiosity and that if we’re hurt that bad, we should seek God for healing.
There. My personal experience and opinion in a nut shell. Feel free to ask anything. I wish more people would try to understand and not just judge. If you’ve never been here, it’s impossible for you to understand.
Imagine trying to make yourself fall out of love with whoever it is you are in love with. You couldn’t do it…whether you are gay or straight.
Now, Imagine being told that it’s ok to be gay but it’s not ok to share EVERY part of your body and life with that special person.
I can honestly say that the thing that bothers me most about the majority of the things I hear in these comments is that people say it’s ok to be gay but it’s not ok to have a physical relationship. I can tell you that my partner and I have offered a vow of celibacy to churches before so we could be in ministry positions. That didn’t matter to them. Like I said before, our relationship WAY outlives our sex lives. If I could never have a physical relationship again we would still love each other. BUT, if sex is the issue the church has, why would God allow someone to be gay but NOT allow them to experience a FULL relationship with their partner. That’s just crazy.
@ V – just this morning, i was reading the first several responses to this thread and discussing it w/ my wife.
i said something to the tune of “you know… i really wish we could sit down with your friend X, [who is gay], and just ask him questions about his experiences, thoughts on this kind of discussion, etc.”
your post offers perspective that i have not taken the time to seek out and understand… thanks for writing so candidly.
do you and your partner attend a local church? if yes, can you be candid about your relationship, or do you have to hide it from the church?
I’m writing this as a person who has struggled with lesbianism. I never “officially” dated anyone but I was in a “friendship” that I leaned on for an intimacy greater than any straight relationship I’ve ever been in. Given another month or two it would have gne sexual.by the grace of God that friendship was ended. I’ve gone through a lot of healing since then and have come t realize why it was sin – at least for me.
1. I was beginning to act on those impulses as a response to the pain of being molested. I hated men and wanted nothing to do with the gender that caused me such pain.
2. The emotional attachment I was fostering with this person was pushing me away from God. I was becoming increasingly angry and lashing out at others and myself.
3. The shame I felt for my desires being contrary from the bible was pushing me away from the fellowship of the saints. There was a lack of realness when interacting with Christians.
4. The places I ended up going with my gay friends were always places that were contrary to godliness. I would end up drunk and miserable when we went to “the club” – totally not godly.
SO, cast the stones if you will… I make no apologies to man for where my heart struggles.
I am working my salvation out with fear and trembling…
anne-what a great question and one that I have done some thinking about for a long time, mainly due to a close friend of mine telling me he was gay. i had a really hard time at first because he is going to seminary to become a pastor and because of my upbringing i thought, “what the crap? you can’t be a pastor and be gay.” so i did what anyone would do i’m sure…i got a lot of books and did research and finally came to the conclusion that i probably will have to wait for an answer, but in the meantime i’m not going to worry about it. my friend was taught that being gay is not a sin, but acting out on those feelings is a sin. just like acknowledging that your friends husband is attractive is not a sin, but lusting after him is a sin. through my journey to *find the answer* i realized that me knowing this information about my friend in no way changes our relationship. i still love him as my friend and talk with him and hang out with him. i am still suppose to respect him as i did before and be honest about things with him. i’m suppose to treat him the way i want to be treated and he is still my brother in christ because he has professed to be a believer and follow God’s will for him (he is currently not and has vowed to not be in a homosexual relationship with anyone). i think the reason WHY so many people believe that just being gay/lesbian is a sin is because it is easy to find *sin* in others lives rather then look at the sin in our own lives and become humble before God and work on our sin and our relationship with God. the fact that we are human and not perfect is the reason WHY just BEING homosexual is thought to be a sin. i think it is ironic that the no one quoted Matthew 7:3…maybe we should start there…..
@tony g
I have gay friends and I do sit down with them and have very candid discussions about homosexuality, religion, salvation quite frequently. the funny thing is so many people proclaim to KNOW so much and are unwilling to actually have a conversation. I could be wrong, but I would be surprised if your wifes friend wouldn’t love to talk to you. If it comes from a place of understanding and love, not judgement.
@ Lori – agreed; I’m sure he would be willing to talk – I just haven’t initiated that conversation. He doesn’t live near us, so the opportunity doesn’t present itself often.
Either way, I want to learn more.
Wow. Missed all this today. I got nothin’. All I know (or think I know) is that we Christians like to rank sins from worst to best. How is that biblical? And how come MY sins are always best? :)
V – thanks so much for sharing your story. You’re courageous to do so. I hope it impacts all here to at least think about the other side of the coin.
Em – same to you – thanks for sharing your story. I would add that your experience can be exactly the same for anyone that is heterosexual and dealing with the same issues, abuse, acting out, turning to opposite sex friends that also go to places of ungodliness. This is as I think you know, not just exclusive to homosexual relationships! Homosexuals and heterosexuals deal with the same issues, addictions, needs, desires, sinful or not. I’m not sure however that any of it is reason for “cause” of homosexuality – any more than it causes someone to be heterosexual.
Bottom line in all this conversation, I think there is a whole lot more to this than meets the eye and that there are simple pat answers for it all. Just telling someone that they can “change” if they pray hard enough, repent enough, work hard enough . . . I don’t think that’s the answer. Any more than telling someone that is clinically depressed the same thing. I tried to find some very recent research on what is being determined with studies into homosexuality and causes – whether it is genetic and pre-determined at birth or not. I found this which seems to provide good solid information. I’m not saying this is the end all answer or that I believe one way or another. I just think in any of our conversations and how we interact and view homosexuals, we need to be smart and keep this stuff in mind that it’s not a simple answer.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/01/homosexuality-genetics-usa
Michael’s blog post (see post #122) is pretty amazing. check it.
http://www.thischangesnothing.com
@john
Agreed – worth the read!
I didn’t have the patience to read through all the comments so if I am being repetitive, sorry. And if I ramble, again, sorry.
In the union of a man and woman, they become “one flesh”. Each sex has traits that compliment the other. There are things that we learn about God when we come together in a Jerry Mcguire “you complete me” kind of way. I think that in same sex relationships we miss out on all that. I don’t believe homosexuality is forbidden simply because God likes forcing rigid rules upon us, but because he loves us so and wants us to know completely the depth of His love for us.
I used to think that people were not born gay, but now I think that it’s very possible. I’ve read about medical cases where babies are born with reproductive organs for both sexes. Parents are forced to choose whether they will raise the child as boy or girl. Can you imagine the war of hormones going on within that body? It just makes me wonder if there are other biological reasons behind homosexuality. When we think about that we can have a little more compassion for the homosexual. We each have a cross to bear and that seems unfair. The hope is that God takes into consideration or age, knowledge and circumstances.
“If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.” – John 9:41
The simple answer is that being gay is wrong but God is patient, loving and kind. And that gives me much hope for all of us who struggle with ANY sin. Don’t mistake me. We can’t use the blood of Jesus as a crutch to continue in sin. Out of love and gratitude for what he did for us on the cross, we must strive to NOT add to the burden he carried on that hill.
tony g – in post 126 –
Thanks. I appreciate you wanting to learn more rather than just judge. That’s all most of the gay community asks.
As for my local church – yes we do attend a local church. In fact, we are on the leadership teams of that church…and people know that we are a couple. I wouldn’t say we are ‘candid’, but we aren’t ‘in the closet’ either. The people who put us on that team, including the pastor, know that we are a couple. We don’t run around holding hands, kissing, cuddling, etc… We are both EXTREMELY active in the church and are typically too busy to even sit together on Sunday mornings. We are very professional about our relationship. If someone asks, we tell. If someone disagrees, we offer the opportunity to dialogue through it. If we still disagree, we beckon them come together with us on the common bond that we all love Jesus Christ and want other people to know Him like we do. Some have accepted that call, others have rejected it. Also, our small group knows about us and we can be candid with them about our lives.
Honestly, our pastor and board went through a big struggle in naming leadership. They weren’t sure what they felt about homosexuality or who is right in the whole discussion.
What our pastor did realize, was that we all have spiritual gifts to offer and that if she neglects allowing us to use our gifts to reach people for Christ then the sin is hers, not ours. It was a long climb for her to recognize that, but she did and our church is still growing and being blessed.
V – thanks for the reply.
How long did it take you to find this church? Did you try lots of other churches first? What were those experiences like?
Tony G – We actually both went to the church prior to us getting together. Once we got together, we were scared of what our spiritual ‘family’ would do. We didn’t tell anyone for a long time. Those were the majority of the rough nights that we went through. Not knowing if we would have to leave the church, whether or not we would lose our friends, not knowing if we would lose our ministry positions, not knowing where we would worship. We just didn’t know what was going to happen and we were scared.
The crazy part about the church is the fact that they say they love and accept everyone – you know – ‘love the sinner and hate the sin’. However, what I have found, is that the majority of churches invite gay people to attend, but won’t let them do any more than that. They believe they are ‘living in sin’ and can’t lead others toward Christ, but God calls us ALL to live a life of service. We are ALL supposed to spread the gospel. I mean, honestly, do you think that because I am in love with a woman that I am incapable of leading others toward Christ? Of course I can lead people toward Christ.
Obviously, I am very sensitive to the way churches respond to the gay community. If they speak out of both sides of their mouth (join us for worship but you can’t be on a leadership team or in a ‘position’ of authority), I notice. There are MANY churches that do that.
My church is not even ten years old and is United Methodist affiliated and I am in a rural area. VERY contemporary services and mission. We were still figuring out all of our leadership structure as we went through all of this. We happened to have a pastor that is forward thinking enough to realize that it’s unfair to invite gays but not let them serve when we are ALWAYS asking for volunteers and everyone has gifts to share.
I can honestly tell you, that I know MANY gay people who have been burned by the church. They feel it is ridiculous to say that the church ‘accepts everyone’ when in fact, they discriminate in who can do what. Those are all people who have to go to a Unitarian Universalist church or not go at all to be loved and accepted and treated as first class citizens. That’s not fair to the gay community. It’s not fair t the Kingdom…and I believe that ‘the church’ (all of us)….will have to answer for that.
Wow.
Lots to think about there. I can’t begin to understand how it feels to be in your shoes.
Seems to me that the only time I hear “love the sin, hate the sinner” is in reference to homosexuality. You don’t hear anyone say that about greed, or gluttony, or deceit.
I have my own thoughts on why that is… but I’m curious as to your thoughts first.
No “gotcha” coming here – I’m truly curious. Why do you think homosexuality is singled out by the church the way it is?
Anne? Any thoughts on that?
First off, I just really want to thank you for this post. Thank you to your friend too, who I think is very brave. I have not taken the time to read through all of the other comments (forgive me, time gets short with an 11 month old nearby). Forgive me too if I don’t put my thoughts together as much as I’d like.
This is perhaps more of a personal experience than an answer to your question. I admit that at one point, I vehemenantly thought being gay was very wrong and very much a sin. I didn’t know anyone who was gay, and easily saw it as very cut and dry. Not that knowing someone automatically changes that, but for me…
I found out some years ago that my big brother, 7 years older than me, was gay. The circumstances under which I found out were tough. My mother resonded horribly too him while my father was loving. Not that it matters much — but some really didn’t understand. Here is this GOREGOUS man, spent a couple of years in early college (before being honest with himself or open) dating the girl who was the “Miss ____” of our homestate. An all around, really wonderful guy.
The first thing that struck me, why did some people who saw this man always admired and loved and thought of as loving and kind and creative and artistic and handsome as could be, suddenly see him as so much “less than” by simply adding the label “gay”.
I talked to him a lot about it. For him, he said he always knew from as young as he can remember. He was one of three brothers, and even being younger, I can remember somehow knowing something about him was different. No, that doesn’t automatically mean it had anything to do with this, but something to think about.
I went to a Christian College. I took one class that was very interesting to me. Again, this was by no means a progressive school. One professor raised the debate if it was truly homosexuality that is considered “sinful” or the act of being unable at this time to live out that lifestyle that might be considered sinful (ie, no sex outside of marriage, etc) Before you throw the — a man shouldn’t lie with a man, etc. — just slow down. Think of the many scriptures that must be examined fully and in context — that we can’t pick and choose a few words from here or there in the Bible and bring them forth as a rally cry against a group of people.
Yes, I love my brother. Actually, I still love my brother although he is gone. He died almost 5 years ago. He was the victim of a hate crime. He was beaten. He was disowned by a parent. He was tormented by a lifestyle that people couldn’t accept and made them see him as less than. He didn’t stand up to that pressure or try to turn to something different and chose poorly…using drugs to escape the weight of his pain and hurt. — And no, that pain and hurt didn’t come BECAUSE he was gay. I won’t claim it didn’t bring problems. His pain came more from the rejection and loneliness experienced once many who had fomerly loved and adored him and shared his name saw him as less than and unworthy upon knowing this part of him. Many think they wouldn’t do that. Look around and listen in your church. Can you honestly say/think that homosexuality isn’t somehow put out there sometimes as more awful a sin than many others…even though to God we know a sin is a sin is a sin. I think it is easy for the everyday average Christian to quickly denounce homosexuality as it may be a struggle or issue that never is a personal one to them – like lust, lying, pornography, or something else might be. So how easy it is to cry out loudly against something that one sees they won’t be found “guilty” of. But how very, very sad. are Christians so quick to judge so hatefully the struggles that are seen as more “commonplace” Think about it and be honest.
I don’t claim to know the answer on this. I don’t think it is as easy as many do and would not ever be so bold in proclaiming it is as many have. I think as Christians and a church we need to slow down and examine if we offer this population, regardless of what one personally believes about the subject — with as much compassion and love as we would want?
We aren’t called to love homosexuals if/when they turn from the lifestyle. We are called to love them, to love all, as Christ would. I think Jesus would love fiercely. He loved the prostitutes (not in any way trying to correlate them to homosexuals, just saing, he loved sinners of all types…and Thank God He did or each and every one of us would suffer the consequence) I knew my brother. As I got older, I came to know more people who were gay. And I’ll tell you, it can’t be said about this population as a whole any more so than it can be about any other population, but these PEOPLE I knew were loving, kind, generous, committed to their communities. They reached out to people others didn’t — perhaps because they knew what it felt like to be ostracisized. Sadly, many of them experienced their greatest wounds from others who were called “Christians” or “bellievers” or part of the church. How very sad.
Yes, there are homosexuals who are angry and outspoken and perhaps even beligerant. But those are not feelings or behaviors exclusive to this group. These are not feelings or behaviors some Christians don’t share. The way I see it, these are often, right or wrong, the feelings and behaviors or people who have been badly hurt, wounded, misunderstood — or never had the experience of someone taking the time to see who they are — who they really are — beyond any label, mask, etc.
If homosexuality is something considered a sin or not — why would any Christian or church want to exclude this population. Maybe not overtly or even intentionally, but is it a community that you are willing to love? We have outreach to prisons, to substance abusers, to perpetrators of domestic violence. Why is this population so often either ignored, brushed aside, or written off as hostile? Some say homosexuals are welcome in their church so long as they are not actively living the lifestyle, so long as they are not actively involved in this way of “sin”. Do you go to church every week sin free? Are those in your church deemed without fault before they are allowed to come and seek fellowship, or to worship, or to find a place to be accepted and loved first? Why with this population do many Christians insist first upon change before they will offer love?
I readily admit that my view has changed having known so closely someone who called himself a gay man. I still wrestle with it with God. I think often of many of the questions my brother wrestled with. “Why would I want to choose a lifestyle that I knew would be hard?” “Why would I want to choose to be something people would hate before they ever knew me?” “I love children. I’ve always wanted a family. Why would I ‘choose’ homosexuality knowing that it would erect enormous roadblocks to things I’ve always longed for?” Why would someone “CHOOSE” that? Have you ever thought about it? Would you CHOOSE to put yourself in a position of being condemned, hated, critisized, viewed as less than, etc. if you could CHOOSE instead an easier way? By the way I write this I do not suggest I know the answer — but I think he had some pretty good questions.
When some in my church found my brother had died, they were loving and supportive. Some of that was lessened if they heard or learned he was gay. Some saw it then as a consequence of a life he chose. You know what? That stinks. I’ve felt way too many of the same hurts, pains, struggles and loneliness he did — but for many different reasons.
Just my thoughts…perhaps not well conveyed or brought to a great conclusion. I don’t have a great concensus within my own mind other than black/white, gay/straight, Christian/not — my hope is that I will reach out and love EVERY person I encounter…love them fiercely and unabashedly and be willing to get to know them. I want to be willing to listen to what they have to say and how they feel and why they feel that way. I don’t want to automatically judge any group or person. There is One who already has that Call — and He can and will be able to do it with much more wisdom, love, and righteousness than I ever could.
John,
Sorry to just now be responding…You asked me:
“Charlie: Understand your words. But what would you do if your very natural sexual feelings and attractions were completely reversed? What if you were unavoidably attracted to men, and repulsed by the thought of relationships and sex with women? What if this went back as far as you could possibly remember? What if this felt as inborn and natural to you as it does right now for you being attracted to women? What would you do? How would you deal with it?”
Obviously, this is a hypothetical question so I cannot fully give you a “what would I do in this situation” answer.
Basically you are asking how would I deal with my life if I always had an innate homosexual desire? I’m not sure. I’m sure at some point I would act on it. However, just because one has a desire doesn’t mean that it is a healthy desire. I would pray that God would give me a sexual desire as well as a desire of companionship for a wife.
Again, our lives are so tainted by sin we all have different sin tendencies. Mine are different from a homosexuals and I have to pray against them daily.
‘this man is blind. who sinned, him or his parents?’ Response: neither.
If we lived 2,000 years ago, the Bible-believing people of the day would be blogging about that.
Scripture doesn’t change, but our understanding of scripture changes over time. We no longer debate if blindness is a sin, if women have souls, if we should have slaves – all things that were our prejudices wrapped in chapter and verse. And all things that were debated and held to as ‘scriptural’, but as our understanding changed, so did our view of these topics.
I can’t wait for the day we look back on the church’s stance on homosexuality with the same embarrassment that we do with it’s stance on blindness, women in ministry, slavery and mixed race marriages in the past.
I don’t want to dismiss anyone’s personal struggle or the need for it. I just pray the day comes SOON when we have a breakthru in our understanding and find a new way to deal with this as a church. Maybe it will be the younger generations who will have to make that breakthru for us.
Oh for an Abraham Lincoln or Martin Luther King Jr for my gay friends!
AB-
Wow. Thank you for sharing. My heart goes out to you and your brother. You have shed new light on this for me. Especially the part about a gay person only being allowed to come to church if they are not openly living the lifestyle. My response first would’ve been “well, they should at least be TRYING to live above that sin” and then I realized how wrong I was. Christ doesn’t expect us to be clean when we come to Him. He wants us to come to Him with all our baggage and let HIM take care of it. He is patient beyond understanding to wait for us to learn to give it completely to Him and let Him change us, no matter what our struggle is.
Vicky…
Great comments. Thank you. As for a an Abraham Lincoln or Martin Luther King Jr, we’ve already had a lot of incredible men and women involved in challenging prejudices and misunderstandings about the lives of gays and lesbians. One great example is Gene Robinson, an openly gay Episcopal Bishop who gave the invocation at last Sunday’s inauguration kick-off celebration in Washington. Harvey Milk is another great example. The move based on his life just got nominated this morning for Best Picture. The movie is fantastic.
Courtney…
I really liked what you had to say about Christ not expecting us to be clean when we come to him and that He is patient beyond all understanding. Excellent.
Rob.
God is HOLY and turned his back on Jesus as he took on the Sin of the World. He does not wink at Sin. Period.
i started to read the comments, and then realized after a while just how many there were. woah!
no human alive can answer this question of why.
as you probably already know, it is just one of many why questions that humans wrestle with.
you could be asking for a long time and i do not know how many comments this page can hold. but, YOU WILL NOT FIND THE ANSWER HERE.
each of us must make certain decisions within our own hearts and minds, that will either lead to stronger faith or falling away.
we can always find a human to agree with us and stand beside us in any decision that we make. i have made a lot of wrong choices, i know this as is look back on my life. i make wrong choices every day and i can learn from them and ask for forgiveness…but, i still live with some of the outcome of these choices. it is just part of life, we have choice. we have Jesus if we believe. we go on.
ultimately the decisions are our own. and some decisions are based on faith alone, without having all of the answers.
faith often comes up against the way of the world. i would not expect it to be any other way. the life of faith in Jesus is a life of struggle, like salmon swimming up stream. we continue to make the choice to continue in the struggle of this faith or to fall away.
i pray that God will speak to your heart and mind in his will for your life.
V – Wow – sounds like you have an amazing church and leadership there. I wish there were more churches like that. I’m curious – what would their stance be on an “upfront” role if one of you wished to be on the worship team, etc.?
AB – wow – what a story. My heart dropped when you said your brother had died. I cry a tear for you, your brother, your family.
Anne: You need to win an award for this blog post! (I know you’re not out for awards! But still!
So at a certain point, does anyone just get really frustrated with how this is all so confusing faith wise? How and why there are so many things with our faith that are so confusing like this? The whole essence of grace, sin, a holy God – one that “forgives our sins so that we can enter Heaven in order to be with a God who cannot be in the presence of sin or sinners?” I mean, in some ways, the fact that God demands holiness, but that is impossible for us to attain, so His Son dies for our sins, which we have to accept, and then we can enter Heaven . . . sometimes for me it all seems to work against the idea of grace and acceptance. I want to ask God “what’s with this whole thing of being Holy anyway?” I don’t know . . . I really get hung up on this stuff and it makes me question my whole faith, Christianity, and sometimes I just want to chuck it all out the window. Seriously. I guess I’m throwing this out as a white flag of help in a crisis of faith. Maybe this isn’t the forum for it (sorry Anne) but the whole homosexuality thing is one of those issues that just throws me for a loop in all of this. After this year of elections and all I saw in Christian circles with that whole mess . . . I just find it harder and harder to call my self a Christian. I don’t know what to do anymore. I’d like to say pray for me, but to be honest, sometimes these days I don’t even really believe in that anymore. Is all really real God? Please show me.
@ John re: what would their stance be on an “upfront” role if one of you wished to be on the worship team, etc.?
See, that’s my thing. As a former worship leader, I can tell you from my own experience that the people in the “upfront” roles have just as much habitual sin in their lives as anyone else.
For whatever reason, we’ve decided that homosexuality is one of those sins that disqualifies people from serving. Pastors and worship leaders can have any number habitual sins going on (that may or may not be obvious to those in the congregation), yet they’re not disqualified. Pride, anger, deceit… these are part of the human condition, yet we don’t hear “love the sinner, hate the sin” on those topics. We love the leader and ignore the sin.
IMHO… this is because we can identify more readily w/ those issues, and are quicker to forgive and overlook since we understand them. Straight Christians have little or no frame of reference for the struggles that gay people might go thru, so we are slower to identify w/ them.
@ Tony – yes – I was on staff for many years in worship and in upfront leadership/worship teams as well and can echo exactly what you’re saying.
I think it’s tied to a few things:
It might be tied to an ingrained need to feel better about ourselves. We classify certain activities (generally ones that we don’t struggle w/ ourselves) as being “more sinful” than others.
I know plenty of pastors and leaders who are in completely dysfunctional relationships that do not honor God. But… they’re not gay… so, they’re not disqualified from serving.
It might also be tied to a “hero worship” thing we have w/ our church leaders. We overlook the “small” sins, or the ones we can’t easily observe, anyway, because we can’t bring ourselves to admit that we’re following someone who “doesn’t have it all together.”
There are none righteous; no, not one. Perfect leaders are a complete illusion.
The fact that the Church (Post Modern) opens stuff like this up for question is proof that we collectively value unity (acceptance, inclusion, tolerance etc.) above Truth.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the DARKNESS HAS NOT UNDERSTOOD IT.”
John 1:1-5
Jud said:
“Rob.
God is HOLY and turned his back on Jesus as he took on the Sin of the World. He does not wink at Sin. Period”
Hey Jud. (hehe). I don’t think that Rob was implying that God “winks” at sin. God IS Holy but the blood of Jesus covers us so that we might have a relationship with Him in spite of our sinful nature.
“If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” (John 8:7)
Re: “The fact that the Church (Post Modern) opens stuff like this up for question is proof that we collectively value unity (acceptance, inclusion, tolerance etc.) above Truth.”
Really?
I guess I’ll stop accepting or tolerating any sin from anyone, and won’t include anybody who doesn’t have a perfect record. Sure will be nice; being in a church full of perfect people. I can’t wait.
Ok…back again…
Tony G. – Why do I believe homosexuality is singled out more than any other sin? Good question. I think that the gay community is the minority of our time. I believe that people are scared of us. They don’t understand us. People seem to have this idea that we are all pedophiles, freaks, perverts, etc… The minority always gets the attention. It’s a ‘culturally relevant’ issue today because the gay community is FINALLY coming out of the closet so gays are in the cross hairs. Honestly, if all of the gay Christians would come out of the closet EVERYONE would be shocked. Gays have been a minority for a long time because they were afraid of society. They didn’t tell people about their TRUE love, so most people never had to deal with it. Now that more and more people are coming out, the world is having to face the issue head on. Some people are dealing with that, others shut down to it. Some people want to be stubborn and not try to understand that this isn’t a “choice”. Some people just want to throw a Bible passage and say “thats why”. It all boils down to the fact that some people just don’t know how to deal with change so they reject it. They don’t understand…and that’s the bottom line in my opinion. It almost ALWAYS takes a personal relationship with someone who is gay to recognize that they aren’t any different and that they can love Jesus too. It’s a lack of relationship and a lack of education.
Once the homosexuality issue comes to rest, another issue will arise. There is always a minority that is ‘different’ and that we need to learn to accept and love equally.
John – Actually, my partner is in an ‘up-front’ position as she is on the worship team. Some people weren’t happy about that and left the church. They have since returned.
Sooo….I guess they’re ok with it now? Don’t hear a lot about it anymore because we have decided as a leadership team to make gay a non-issue rather than be a church that is pro- or anti-gay. Same way with abortion – we want abortion to be a non-issue rather than be a pro-abortion or anti-abortion church. We strive to not be an ‘issues based’ church. We don’t march in parades or boycott or picket. We don’t want to be the church that puts barriers between non-believers having the opportunity to hear about Jesus by rejecting and judging their life when we don’t walk in their shoes. We don’t tolerate lines that divide…and all of these ‘issues’ are lines that divide. We stand for people meeting Jesus and growing in relationship with Him and others who love Him.
We believe that once people are in a growing relationship with Jesus, that the Holy Spirit will convict them of sin in their life. We believe that the Holy Spirit will prompt them to change their attitudes, views, opinions, actions, and lifestyles according to His conviction. It’s not our job to tell them they are right or wrong. It is our job to love them and nurture them in their spiritual walk. I mean, seriously, do you think that the Holy Spirit would convict me of YOUR sin before He convicts YOU of it? I don’t think so. We try to let the Holy Spirit do His work and we just love. We don’t get it right all the time, but we’re learning.
This is a good discussion and I’m grateful to be a part, and to hear what people are saying. But one thing that continues to come up is the issue of our feelings, the way we think or have always felt…
It’s an American cultural spin on faith. We put the spotlight on our feelings, and our place, or where we fit or don’t fit, or how other people feel or don’t feel.
But if God is sovereign, and He is, He’s the ultimate focus here. His grace — a reminder for those of us who judge one sin above another. His Word — for those of us who struggle with the harsher portions of Scripture, like when my feelings say to not forgive, but Scripture clearly says I should. Not only that I should, but that I need to get up before asking God for anything and make it right. I don’t know about you, but there are times I’d like to “white out” those portions.
Do I heed that? Is His grace sufficient when it seems impossible? Will He honor those who obey in spite of feelings?
Can He transform my pride, my sin, my character, my life?
For me, that’s the greater question. And it’s also why in conversations like these, I am forced to look at my own life and ask God for wisdom to know what to do, what to say, and how to love like He does, but also to keep Him as the central focus.
The dialogue is amazing and healthy and good, and thank God that we can come together and talk about it.
@V – “Some people want to be stubborn and not try to understand that this isn?t a ?choice?. Some people just want to throw a Bible passage and say ?thats why?. It all boils down to the fact that some people just don?t know how to deal with change so they reject it. They don?t understand?and that?s the bottom line in my opinion. ”
your thesis of “that this isn’t a “choice” is intruiging to me, pls explain
@ Tony – I think she’s saying that her sexuality, whether it’s a sin or not a sin, has in her experience never been a choice for her. The same way, I assume, you never made a choice of your sexuality one way or the other. It was engrained in you from day one. As many have professed here, they feel they never had a choice in the matter and it’s so strongly engrained in their being, that they can’t ignore what they are. And as many have professed or account for others saying, “I would never choose to be gay – I wish I wasn’t – why would anyone “choose” to be gay and cause this much upheaval in their life and others once they come out?” It all makes me wonder how many are hiding in closets. How many have taken their own lives because of so much inner turmoil in their life. How many have been killed? And how Jesus would relate to and love these people? How should we?
Tony- I can’t control the fact that I am not attracted to men and that I am attracted to women.
Is it a choice to be in a relationship? SURE. But the love that I feel is not a choice.
Clarify?
@V – yes, that clarifies it clearly (bad english, i know!)
not trying to debate, only hear you – this whole subject is intruiging to me, that’s all
I think the main question here is not really “Why is homosexuality a sin?”, but “Why did GOD make homosexuality a sin?” Obviously we will never truly understand the reasoning of God, however, I think it’s our duty as Christians to explore the subject.
I surprised no one has brought up Immanuel Kant’s moral imperative to explain the “wrongness” or sinfulness of homosexuality. Maybe they did, but I’m not going to lie, I didn’t exactly read ALL 160 posts.
Kant’s logic, based outside that bible states:
“Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law.”
In other words, something in a society is wrong if, when EVERYONE in that society participates in that the society, the society becomes no longer operable, or viable.
Example: Murder is wrong, because if everyone was a murderer, then everyone would kill everyone in that society, therefore killing that society
Example 2: If everyone stole from each other, then society would be chaotic as everyone’s needs are constantly changing hands unknowingly. Sure, not everyone in that society would die, but it makes it an nonviable society.
Therefore, if everyone is homosexual, then the society would last exactly one generation, and therefore cease to exist. That makes it immoral
Whether you agree with this or not, is obviously up to you. I figure, though, it makes you think about why things are considered “wrong,” and in this case, Homosexuality fits the bill as being immoral.
@ Good Doctor
I suppose this is somewhat extreme thinking, but I believe many gay women do get pregnant via artificial means, etc. Thus, it’s not impossible that a society would be lost in a generation. As well, it doesn’t rule out bi-sexual relationships either. A woman could be in a homosexual relationship, but still get pregnant by a man naturally too.
Can’t say that I agree with Kant’s logic. I mean, I know it’s far fetched, but if everyone cut down the trees on their property, our society would be tragically crippled. So, does that make it sin to cut down trees?
Just trying to make sense of that. Can’t really… There are good things that if we ALL did, it would make our society no longer operable or viable.
It’s good food for thought, but it doesn’t convince me.
Wow….good argument John. I didn’t think of that. lol….good one… =)
@V. Thanks. I think was Good Doc was getting at were things that would make our society cease to function. As his examples, murder, stealing, etc. Things that regardless of culture or society, people generally “universally” accept as being “wrong.” Thus the logic – if everyone were homosexual, re-creation would not happen. However, as I suggested on the extreme side of thinking, it still could. I do believe in this thing of “universal common laws/beliefs” etc. – which is why I can get hung up on things like homosexuality, abortion, etc. as there seems to be a break down of the universal thing in that people don’t seem to agree in the same common way for whatever reason. I guess the question is – who or what creates these universal beliefs – the belief that murdering another human in the living flesh outside the womb is wrong? Most everyone agrees, even one who murders another. (well, aside from extreme cases of psychopaths that kill and don’t believe it’s wrong.) But then we all don’t have the same feelings on things like abortion. You can get into some deep thought here regarding humanity and how we became what we are! Over my head! :-)
Suzanne, it couldn’t be phrased any clearer, thanks.
@Suzanne & Jud
But one thing that continues to come up is the issue of our feelings, the way we think or have always felt?
But what if it’s truly more than “feelings” as I tend to believe that it is? What if it’s a true biological, chemical, physical issue as is becoming more and more apparent? What if no matter the case, the person could not turn away from how they were created? What of stories of people born in between? Or with indistinguishable sex?
Why would God allow or choose to create in this way, yet hold it over our head as sin if we act on what are compelling and overwhelming biological factors that come into play? Obviously now, I know one must also then examine the idea of people that are chemically and wired in their brain chemistry towards addictions, violence, depression, bi-polar that can cause “sin.” etc. and ask the same question. I think in those cases, however, those situations have been recognized as a true “abnormality” in chemistry from what a normal person should be. But has science determined a biological disposition towards homosexuality to be abnormal? That of course begs the question of what determines what “normal” is. Is it a moral question? A scientific question? Biological? It gets pretty interesting to walk down this road and ask these questions!
It’s like me – I’m very wired towards what many consider to be ADD behavior. I can see this clearly in my childhood and see it as a grown middle aged adult. It has made me who I am and as a creative person, is something that allows me to find great success in those areas. Yet it has also had it’s drawbacks, too. Some call it a chemical disorder or a learning disability, etc. Some say it’s a way we’re wired that doesn’t fit in with common education and society the way non ADD people are. Is this a defect, or how we are wired? Does this same situation apply towards a biological disposition toward homosexuality?
The answer is because it goes against Gods design, I think. It’s like designing a car then trying to use square wheels. This doesn’t make me sound good probably.. I’m not sure. But one of Gods commands was to replenish the earth after the flood. This can’t be done, nor can we fulfill this purpose (at least outside of marriage in the Christian perspective) if we lived a gay lifestyle, yes there are ways around this now with science or other means but it still negates original design and use.
Secondly, the biblical answers would be in Romans 1 it was because they were deceived that God gave them over to their lusts. Basically, at first one may feel or think they are doing wrong by feeling or living a gay lifestyle, there’s that voice in the back of the head thing going on, it’s over time that this goes away usually and become acceptable. I’ve also noticed a huge trend surrounding my gay friends is the lack of a strong male figure in their lives growing up, not always but mostly.
I think the answer lies in why God created us in the first place.
Before the beginning there was God. God is triune ? in relationship as one. God is eternal. God is love. God is love to such an extent that he created us to be in relationship with him, to lavish who he is (love) on us. He cannot be contained! And he created us with free will so that we could choose to reciprocate or not. It?s about relationship. Everything God has done in time and eternity, has been about relationship. Object lessons over and over again.
In the garden, when God created Adam, God said that it was not good for man to be alone. God knew we needed an object lesson in relationship. So he took a part of Adam and fashioned woman, whom Adam named Eve. She was his helpmeet ? another aspect of relationship. She was from him and she was a part of him. They completed each other in their relationship with God. It is almost a sense of trinity again. A hint. A picture.
God is also a God of order. He created the universe with physical laws that govern matter and space and time and such things. There are also spiritual laws that he put in operation as well. God?s laws are seen in all of creation, we sense them in the depths of our very being. Even other religions and philosophies pick up on some of God?s universal laws (they operate for both the believer and the unbeliever alike ? ie, gravity, the principle of sowing and reaping, etc..). The concept of yin/yang ? where 2 equal and complimentary or opposite) parts fashion a whole, I believe, is an attempt at defining one of God?s laws. We see this concept in how men and women are physically fashioned. We fit together.
God?s laws cannot be broken. We can try to circumvent those laws and experience the consequences of trying but we cannot break God?s laws. We can only try to manipulate circumstances to mitigate the results. Example: If you jump off a cliff, the law of gravity is in effect and you will hit the ground eventually. Now you can build wings or use a parachute, or a jet pack to limit the consequences of that jump, but you cannot change the law of gravity. You can defy gravity for a while but it will eventually prevail. All of God?s laws are like that. You can choose to defy God but eventually, He will prevail.
Adam and Eve did not break the law, they defied God and in doing so, they broke the relationship. Satan got them to swim against the current of God?s love and the consequences were dire.
The 10 commandments were given to us to show us where we were bucking the system, to show us where we did not measure up because of that choice and to make us aware of our need for God to reach into time and save us. (I am grateful for time so that the consequences of sin don?t have to be eternal)
Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. He is the way for us to get back into swimming in the right direction. It goes against our nature to do so until we are born again through Him!
All of the above is the foundation for my answer to why being gay is a sin. God designed us, male and female, to become one flesh in relationship with each other and with God. To live any other intimate relationship is to defy the very system he put in place. That is the only physical relationship that is not defying God?s law. I am struggling with words here but at least I am not alone :) Even Paul called this a mystery!
The bottom line is ? wanting any other relationship more than one with God is idolatry, even a husband or wife. The marriage is the picture, the object lesson, designed to reveal God?s heart for us. It is pure and holy – as He designed it. It is the one intimate physical relationship that was designed by God for pleasure and procreation, for us to experience overwhelming delight in relationship and procreation, with the promise of even better in eternity.
Some people God gifts with singleness. And what an awesome gift it is! To know that God has reserved you for himself alone, the he will supply all of your needs personally! Wow, what an amazing gift that is! I think God kept that revelation from me 29 years ago because I would have begged for that gift and missed out on three wonderful children and an awesome husband.
It all boils down to relationship. Everything in life, everything God has given us, every word He has spoken to us, it all points back to God desire for relationship with us. He wants us to want His ways over our own. It is our choice but to choose our way, whether predisposed or not, over God’s way is definitely sin! When we finally get that God desperately loves us and is pursuing us and knows us better than we know ourselves and has designed a plan for each of us that is better than anything we can ask or imagine…, why would we want anything else but God’s way?
John, What do you understand the Fall of Man to be? God didn’t create anyone or anything with defects. Man sinned, the wages of that is corruption, perversion, SEPERATION and ultimately death.
By your reasoning God made me a lustful heterosexual male and by acting on that I am Glorifying my Creator? Do I understand you correctly? What I’m also catching onto here is that homosexuality is somehow a special class sin that is undeniably more of a struggle than, say, heterosexual lust. So professing Christians acting on homosexual urges get a pass. It seems like that is where this is going.
It goes back to the Bible ultimately. If you don’t take God seriously when Homosexuality is condemned in His Word then how can you take a six day creation, the virgin birth, the resurrection and the second coming seriously? Those would seem to be much more far fetched than God calling homosexuality a perversion.
Why is being gay a sin? Why isn’t divorce a sin anymore? Why can women lead in churches and it’s not a sin anymore? Can anyone say Shrimp Cocktail?! I read a response on Annes friends blog about fighting against his desires because they are sinful. Who says? the Bible? Well, the bible says a lot of things that dont apply anymore, evidently. Why does this sin get to stand the test of time and others don’t?
@Jud – take the sex out of it – take the lust out of it – take the perversion out of it – think of someone with very normal, natural, controlled, healthy emotional, physical, and romantic feelings – all that love can and should be in a normal relationship – but they just happen to be compelled towards a member of the same sex – coupled by all of the other physical, emotional, and character traits that many homosexuals can exhibit in a different direction that their typical sex would exhibit. Then imagine them knowing they were like this and “different” and others recognizing that all the way back to as far as they can remember? LIke when they were 3 years old. I’m not saying that a homosexual gets a “pass” for sin any more than anyone else does. And I think there can be perverse, lustful, unhealthy sex between homosexuals, just as there can be between heterosexuals. I don’t think one trumps the other sin wise. And I’m not condoning homosexuality – I’m just asking what do you tell someone in that position? Imagine being told that it’s a sin for you to be with a woman? Would you suppress every known instinct within you that you’ve had all of your life? One can more easily suppress this sort of thing such as lust when one is single, knowing and hoping for the day that you will be able to express those desires in a God honoring relationship. But imagine being told you can NEVER express those desires, and if you do, it is a sin? And to turn the other way towards a “normal” relationship relationship with someone of the opposite sex is repulsive to you? I mean, how can you blame a person in this situation? And if God made no one with defects . . . then what do we say? I’m just on the fence. I can see both sides. And I ask why God would leave it this way without more clear cut answers?
I’m Catholic and Gay. I believe that having same sex attraction is not a sin. I do believe all sex and lust is a sin before marriage for gay and straight people. But i don’t believe marriage is for just a man and women. I believe that marriage is truly between 2 people who love each other and want to share there whole lives together and don’t base there realtionship on sexual desire. I believe when 2 people no matter what there gender is if they love each other and are in a committed realtionship and get married that when they have sex its no longer about lust sex becomes an act of love not an act of sin. I truly believe there 2 kinds of sex one that brings people together and grows there love and bond and there is sex based on lust that comes from a dark place. I see nothing in the bible that says love between a man and women is stronger then love between 2 men or 2 women feelings are just as strong no matter what gender you are. one day we will have no genders and we will leave these mortal bodies and our love will always remain. I think if gay people were allowed to marry that it would lead alot people away from there sinful lifestyles and would follow a life in a committed realtionship instead of a life filled with sexual desire and impuleses it would be a healthier, happier, more for filling life style.
@ Tom: well said.
Thanks for sharing. This is exactly why I believe gay marriage should be allowed. Without it, we force people into perpetual dating relationships. Can any of us think that is a good thing? Just think back to our own dating relationships! LOL.
I cannot decide where to land with many of the aspects of this fundamental question. I’m not a bible scholar–and the bible is the only common element between two believers on which they STILL can’t fully agree (hence multiple interpretations of the same passage).
I do know a few things that I consider indisputable:
1. I’m not gay. I cannot relate, or pretend to relate, to anyone who is. It’s like my wife going through pregnancy and eventually childbirth, and me trying to stand along side of her and say, “Just push; it’s easy.” And I dare any husband to do the same to his wife.
2. No one’s perfect. Every day, I make mistakes I ought to know better on, and, MORE IMPORTANTLY, I make mistakes that I don’t even know are mistakes. Here’s a step further: I look back on my life as a Christian and realize that I was doing things that I THOUGHT were mistakes, and they WEREN’T. My relationship with Christ is the ONLY thing that continues to breathe revelation into my life, whether it’s because I read it in the bible or because God reveals it in everyday life.
3. Every day that I choose to grow in my relationship with Christ gives me a new insight to my actions. Some are actions born from brokenness in their motivation, some are actions born from what God wants to do in my life but I do not realize. Some are still totally unknown. As I walk this thing out, I consistently find areas to improve, and, what’s key here, is that I am NOT working on things that even people close to me are working on.
That’s a mouthful. Here’s an example: I have friends in my own church that are MORE compassionate, more committed and more understanding of concepts like grace, mercy, etc. than I am. But some of them smoke. I don’t smoke. I have NO idea why God hasn’t worked with them on this issue, but, if I were a betting man, I’d say He was more interested in things that He considered to be more important for their lives at that moment.
Here’s how it works out for me: my gay friends, when I talk to them about church, God, and life, the fact that they’re gay is irrelevant to 99% of our conversations. It’s only when THIS question pops up that it becomes a point of discussion. Why? Because in my experience, the fact that they’re gay is not necessarily what God is “concerned” about (like He’s ever concerned–haha). Maybe we work on SALVATION first, then we work on RELATIONSHIP with Christ next… If He’s got an issue with them, let it come out of the relationship that they’ve built. Farbeit for me to recommend to someone to “quit” something dictated by an interpretation of God who I profess is One in whom we must all first find intimacy without waiting until we’re “perfect”. Simply put: to each his own in dealing with our stuff with God.
One step to either side will put us in a different discussion.
To one side, I am faced with another question… How do we handle the outworking of a gay person in leadership in a church? In my church, incidental sin would be something that we are all susceptible to, and, thus, so long as the incidents are held to accountability and they are create direct interference with a given ministry, the person is allowed to continue to lead. However, if a lifestyle (day to day actions against God) is considered to be lived against the will of God, that leader is asked to step down until such a time that this issue is resolved. That alone is a HUGE and unwritten detractor for the gay community in my area–how would any gay person ever feel like they fit in to a church that cannot allow them to impart from a position of leadership? At the same time, I can’t see a way around it from the Senior Pastor side, either; if you allow someone who has chosen a lifestyle against the pillars of the church’s fundamental beliefs, you are watering down the Gospel entirely.
To the other side, and as a marketing person, I realize that in order to attract a gay community to a church, one would need to profess “support” of the community, and, in essence, seem to “approve” of this lifestyle. In this day and age, there isn’t really a community of gay people looking for a church that does not support who they are or what they do but still loves them. They’re looking for both. Who wouldn’t? So, as a marketer, I’m at a stale mate (no pun intended). I can’t profess support, as it’s a watering down of my church’s interpretation of the Word. But I *want* to see more diversity in the church, and attract the ever-growing population of gay and lesbian attendees.
Ugh. It’s as if this age is wrought with a problem whose equation cannot be balanced.
Thoughts?
All this talk about reproduction/survival of the species and “unnatural” sex has me wanting to ask a few questions:
If we use the logic that being gay is a sin, because man and woman fit together perfectly and were put here for procreation, does that mean that infertile men or women should not have sex? After all…they can not reproduce.
And about the “unnatural” part…it is “unnatural” for a person to read or talk with their fingers, but that’s exactly what blind people do with Braille and deaf people do with sign language. Very unnatural. Is that sin?
And where does Viagra come in to play in all of this? That, of course, goes against nature as well.
Lots of sin in this world, if the qualifying factors are whether it’s natural or whether you can reproduce.
OK…..here is the big wrench….
Galations 3:26-29
“26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (KJV…for those who believe everything else is misinterpreted)
So tell me….if there is neither male nor female then why does homosexuality matter? Kinda takes the wind out of the “boys and girls fit together” argument.
That verse tells me that I am a child of God by my faith and that if I have been baptized (which I have) then I am an heir according to the promise.
ANYONE???????
I can’t help it, yer kids are funny when they do this. They struggle and toil to come up with “the answer” for why sin is sin, so they can share it with us and save our souls from ourselves. It really gets amusing when they focus on the type of sin.
psst..looked in a mirror lately? The answer is obvious. Just not easy. Then, nothing subjective ever is. I know, I’m being coy. The problem is that stating the answer won’t work. If you haven’t figured it out for yourself, you just won’t get it.
By the way, there is no difference between being gay and acting on it, when it comes to why it is or isn’t a sin. If not acting on desire was the solution, faith would have no place in salvation. The question isn’t the problem.
@V – sorry, can’t let this one go. The verse you quote has absolutely nothing to do with being gay or straight (as far as sin goes) , and you know it.
it’s referring to that, in God’s plan all can recieve salvation, reagrdless of race, sex, etc. – yes, including gay or straight, it’s not saying that there is no difference between man and woman
btw – is sex with an animal a sin? the Bible says so, but things have changed, you know
really, seriously – is it – anyone, and why?
Hi,
I’ve come gallivanting over from the Friendly Atheist, run by a man who professes to be a friend of yours. Being an atheist myself, it could be difficult to separate my argument against homosexuality being a sin from my argument against believing in a deity, but I will try and I hope it won’t lead you to dismiss me out of hand.
Obviously I don’t believe in sin, but that’s not a useful argument here because it’s not what’s under discussion. So, trying to argue from your perspective, I would instead argue two separate points.
1) Homosexuality is natural – there are literally thousands of documented cases of homosexuality in the animal kingdom. This includes species living in highly social communities, such as chimpanzees and other apes. While one might ask why we should take our cues from the animal kingdom, I don’t think that’s the correct conclusion to draw from this observation. The fact is that we are apes. They do it. We do it. It makes a mockery of arguments that heterosexuality is ‘right’ because it’s natural. It’s no more ‘natural’ than homosexuality. We need only look at ourselves to decipher that.
2) Interpretative opportunism – the Bible has so many verses that it can generally be interpreted to say almost anything. I’m not being facetious. If you chose to take the New Testament message of love as taking precedence over Old Testament threats of punishment, you wouldn’t have much of a conflict on your hands. So what you have is a series of reactionary bigots attempting to manipulate people’s fears for what is ultimately a trivial reason. Call me cynical, but nothing is more politically useful than having your followers insecure and doubting themselves.
I could harp on about private consensual relations between adults being the business of no one but the adults in question, but I suspect that to a religious crowds, those words would only fall on deaf ears.
I appreciate your attention.
@ Frank Rue: When i pray for our church to accept gay mariage i don’t want them to accept the sinful life style that majority of gay people live. Instead i want them to accept the fact that 2 men and 2 women can be in loveing christ centered mariage who are comitted. I’m gay and i’m a virgin it’s not easy staying a virgin it is very hard even though i want to have sex and i desire it greatly i look for a realtionship beyond sex it’s not easy finding a person who will be with you for a long period of time without sex. thats why i surrond myself with people who believe in my values and look for love with someone who wants to devlope a love that will last forever not just a few months or few years forever. Sometimes i believe that god made me this way so i can see sin in every form and it brings me closer to my faith if i wasn’t gay right now i would have most likely would have never gotten this close to my faith and if i were straight i would have probably slept with many women as do most straight men before marriage but because i’m gay i realize it’s important that i control my lust and desires and look for something deeper more meaningful i know the majority of gay people don’t do this and i pray for them but most of them weren’t raised in a religous backgrounds so i can’t judge them only god could based on the way they were raised and taught not everyone was raised with values and faith. So i understand that all lust and sex are wrong before marriage and i understand that men and women are ment to be together but not for all men and for all women. I was born with no attraction for women at all i wish i was attracted to women that would make my life a million times easier but i’m not. i’m attraced to men and i’ve always been that way since i was like 7 years old and it’s not just attraction i have feminen qualities that most straight men don’t have for example when i talk or laugh or just be my self around people without saying anything they ask me if i’m gay. since i was in middel school and all through highschool i would always have people ounce in a while ask me if i’m gay and i would always deny it and it would bother me that they could tell i was gay even when i’m not in realtionship with anyone they could tell what i was before i even could accept it.
I can’t believe that this is even an issue to be discussed. Of course the homosexual lifestyle is a sin – God says it is (sorry for the pat answer). But you know what, that’s #6235 on the list of a billion+ other sins. What about the biggest sin (in my opinion) of not falling down on our knees every time we take a breath and worship God for his unending patience and love in our lives…what a prideful attitude we all have. I think the point is not to focus on sin – b/c we all struggle with sins, and every sin, no matter how big or small we may view it is an absolute disgrace to God and has the potential to separate us even further from Him. But, He is so amazing that He has provided us a way to experience Him in our every day lives. So, let’s not focus on the sin, but on the awesome Creator we have who loves and desires a relationship with all of us – no matter what the “top” sin is we may struggle with…
Tony – I do believe that verse says a lot about the gay community. I believe that it assures our salvation, which many churches deny. God does not view us as male and female, slave or free, jew or greek. Racial, social, and gender distinctions that so easily divide US in NO WAY hinder Christ from saving us. There is nothing on this planet that we can do to earn salvation. That means that there is nothing on this planet that we can do to lose our salvation other than reject Christ. Salvation is not based on our actions, but on our state of faith in Christ alone. So, my salvation is not based/dependent on my sexuality. The only thing that my sexuality effects is how well I can grow in my relationship with Christ while here on earth. So, if my realtionship with my partner is Christ-centered and honoring and helps me grow in my relationship with Christ, how can it be wrong? If we are truly, literally, ‘all one in Christ’ and not divided by racial, gender, and social distinctions….then how can my state of sexuality alone effect my salvation? That verse says more than you think.
Anne,
The first thing a child will ask when you tell them not to do something is “Why?” Sometimes the answer is easy to explain….but often the best answer is “BECAUSE I SAID SO!” Nothing is more annoying than hearing a child say “But Why?” over and over again.
Do you think God gets annoyed with us asking why all the time? Do we really need to know? Why can’t we just accept his answer..which BTW is “BECAUSE I SAID SO”. He will always know our best interest…period. Think of how much better the world would be if we all just answered his direction with “OK” instead of “Why?”.
Thanks for getting me to think a little today!
I agree with you V: The church continues to make it seem like were going to be judged only on our sexuality and makes it seem like if we act on those feelings that we are going to hell. and i don’t believe anyone can tell us that were going to hell because only god can judge us we are all sinners no matter what we do we will always sin some people more then others but we are no better then anyone else if we sin less or more its up to god to show us love and mercy and its our faith in our savior who died for our sins who we must believe will save our souls.
@V – what i said. a gay person’s salvation is based on the same thing as a non-gay person’s salvation. it has nothing to do with being gay/straight or jew or gentile, etc
don’t know what the argument is – except for the argument itself
As I see it, it really comes down to 2 choices, either the bible is the true word of God (foe he can guide humans to write what he desires) or it was written impressionable humans. You cannot have it both ways. You can?t say, well, God guided the humans here, but not here. How can you even think that is a possibility, either God knows everything and everyone, or he is more hands off and lets humans figure it out for themselves.
If you are the type that thinks it the true word of God, then you really should hate homosexuality and all that goes with it. You should strive to eradicate it, since it does NOT please god. At all. Not even a bit. However, you should also follow all 613 commandments in the bible, old and new. Women should not be in any position of authority over a men. Women should not speak directly to God, but should go through their husbands. You should never eat birds that crawl on all 4s.. etc etc, you get the picture.
If you think the bible was written by humans, perhaps nudged in a general direction by a god, then what the heck is the point of the thing? Any single part of it could be wrong and how can you tell which part that is? The bible becomes totally useless.
You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You have to do them all or not do any of them.
Please correct me wherever I got this wrong.. I am trying to figure it out…
I think for me, it comes down to the fact that as I see and study it, it seems there are at times gross errors in interpretation over the years based on the context with what was written and said thousands of years ago. i.e. – like we shouldn’t be eating shrimp, woman should still have their heads covered and be silent, etc. etc – we all know the arguments.) I think homosexuality is a really hard one as I see all of the biblical principles against it and can in many ways agrees with that side . . . but then I know of gay people and the struggles they have knowing this was how they were born – it wasn’t a choice. And I say . . . “OK God, WHY? What’s that all about?” And then I get really messed up with a lot of things that are like that about God, and I start to doubt Him all together. So it’s a vicious circle for me it seems sometimes. I so want the innocent faith of my childhood . . . and it’s not that easy any more. I’m a person that believes in logic, common sense, etc. and so many things with God and faith just don’t make sense – even as much as I believe God makes all things, good, bad, hard to understand, etc. work for good. I know that drill and believe it. But . . .
The women in ministry thing REALLY hangs me up. I’ve been in a great church where women are fully recognized as elders and leaders – and it was fabulous and brought so much balance to the church. Their leadership and balance to that of men was so appreciated. I’ve since been in two churches where women are not recognized, and it was abysmal! The leadership by the men could at best be called “the old boys club” and there was so much missing in balance and temperament of their leadership. Frankly, I just have a really really hard time seeing great women teacher or elder displaying their gifts in church, and Jesus sitting in the room and saying “That’s all fine, but women aren’t allowed to teach or lead in the church – please sit down” and with virtually NO good reason that I can find or think of for why that should be the case in the modern church. Does this represent what we know of Jesus’ character? Is that what He would say or do?
Excellent points, John. I think this is the point where many church “elders” (or “the old boys club” as you put it)would fall back on the “God works in mysterious ways” thing. A non-answer really. They are telling you to just not ask. I honestly do not think that people do this in a malicious or deceitful way, it is just what they were told when they came up with inconsistencies between biblical text and, well, like you said, the appeal of balance.
I think a lot of the problem comes in with the big Four’s interpretation of Jesus’ character. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all gave their views of what Jesus did and what sort of person he was. But those are 4 very human, and varied views. They are going to put in what they saw and the filter they saw it through. This is what I mean about the bible being the true word of God or not. Either God guided the authors of the bible, or he did not. Who can really know the true answer to that question? The bible is really really old. The societal guidelines it displays match up perfectly with the societal views of civilised humans about 2000 years ago. To me, that says it is far more likely the bible was written without divine influence. If that is something you accept, then you can reject the parts that humans have outgrown, such as women are inferior to and property of men. That homosexuality is some awful thing. That shrimp are ok to eat (although, I personally avoid bottom feeders, yuck :)
I think the whole thing starts with the degree of trust you put in the authors and editors and translators and interpreters of the bible.
One thing I know, not much else brings people together so strongly as hate. Find a common hate and people will band together. I think Christianity, whether on purpose or not, has selected homosexuality as a way to bring people together. Very sad, because another catalyst of unity is love.
Bottom line for me these days . . . I think we as Christians spend waaaaay too much time on all of these divisive issues. I think that’s a really interesting point you make, 5ive, about “hate” bringing people together and Christianity using that to bring people together. Took me awhile to exactly get what you were saying, but now it makes sense. I think that’s been the same for abortion too, the election this past year, etc. I know so many Christians that seem to jump on the anti-abortion band wagon acting as if they’re the most compassionate caring people about unborn children, and then go off and treat living people like complete dirt. (I’m not pro-abortion btw.) But it seems more about “jumping on the band wagon” of the issue and being a part of it – what it “says about” the person or how it makes them feel – than really the issue itself. Same with homosexuality. For me again, bottom line, Christianity, the church, the press, etc. spends waaay to much time on all of this and waaay less time loving each other as Jesus taught us.
Bottom line – as is told “One of the Pharisees tested Jesus with a question, “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” (Matthew 22:36 NIV). Jesus replied, ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:37-40 NIV).
If people would just focus on this alone, shut up, and mind their own business with so many other things – and just love on one another no matter what – I think we’d be in a much better place and where Jesus wanted us.
Hear, hear! That right there is THE answer. The ONLY answer. We can ALL agree that love is absolutely God’s first priority.
That’s my answer–and His–and I’m sticking with it!
Frank
“If people would just focus on this alone, shut up, and mind their own business with so many other things – and just love on one another no matter what – I think we?d be in a much better place and where Jesus wanted us.”
Wonderfully said, John. Let me know if you ever find the secret on how to help others see this view without them getting defensive, calling you a hippie and shutting you out entirely. Not that I have had that experience *Ahem*
As for the hate bringing people together, you got it exactly what I was saying. I honestly had not thought of it that way until I heard Frank Schaeffer on Fresh Air talking about his role in the anti-abortion movement and the parallels between that and the anti-homosexual movement.
Okay, so I should first admit that I haven’t read all of the comments to this post–just the top few and the bottom few. If you were in the middle: I apologize; it was eye fatigue, nothing more.
Beyond that, I certainly agree that loving God and loving each other are at the core of the human experience. Really, what Believer could disagree?
But I don’t think that answers the question “Why is being gay a sin?”
The answer to that is as hard to find as any question about sin. Why, according to the Old Testament, was it a sin to go certain places, eat certain things, or even dress in certain types of cloth? Why, according to even the New Testament, is it a sin to even consider telling a lie–even if it might spare someone’s feelings? The answers are hard to find. And non-believers and atheists often point to such things as proof that the church has always been a mechanism of control.
But I think that just because an answer is not found, doesn’t mean it’s not there.
I also think that this particular issue comes down to nature. And I think Catholicism has a lot to teach mainline protestantism on this front (sex scandals and the sins of priests aside).
We are called, according to both Christ, to love God first (Matthew 22). Paul interpreted this to mean that our best service to God could be rendered if we were dedicated solely to him (I Corinthians 7). This, of course, is the principle that motivates the men and women of our world who become monks and nuns and live their lives as celibates among us. But we are also called to love one another, and God created us as men and women to join an one flesh (Genesis). And even Paul, later in I Corinthians 7, agrees that marriage also is divine. The love I have for my wife teaches me about the love God has for me. And vice versa. And vice versa, again.
So why not love between men and love between women? No reason. We are called to love our brothers and our sisters. But in our society, which is far over-sexualized, the passionate bond of friendship is often, I think, confused with homosexuality. To love, and to be close to, the same sex is good and right. But to engage in the sex act–the act of union and procreation–is not. Why? I think that is because sex is an act of profound union designed (contraception aside) for procreation. We are to become one flesh and “multiply” in love. Many Catholics actually believe that sex with contraception is a violation of this. How much more so sex with someone of the same gender?
Why is homosexuality a sin? Maybe just because it is (and I mean no offense by this term) unnatural. Much as anal sex (sodomy) is both sinful and unnatural according to the Bible.
I know this is probably an unpopular opinion–especially in an age when we encourage sexual freedom. Even many Christians are encouraging sexual experimentation and deviance as long as it occurs within the marriage. But the question was “Why is being gay a sin?” and it is the Bible which defines sin. According to the standards of that book, a great many things about our sex lives are not quite right.
Anyway, my thoughts. I hope they did not offend. I’d be super happy if they helped (and I didn’t sound like a gigantic ass in the process).
I tend to think of it as an inclination.
Whenever I’m asked about this “issue,” I try to bring it back to personal encounters. It’s so easy to let our politics trump everything else, especially when we haven’t given ourselves the opportunity to get to know someone different from us.
I have two friends – both of which have gay tendencies (you can decide what that means).
One struggles with sin and openly repents of his addiction to unhealthy practices (like pornography, sex addiction, etc. – not just liking other guys). The other goes to gay bars and blogs about it just so that he can rub it in fundamentalists’ faces.
The first friend came out to me a few years ago and was more ashamed about keeping something from a friend than actually being gay. I honestly didn’t know what to do or say. So, I told him that I loved him. I didn’t worry about him “taking it the wrong way”, and I didn’t act awkward around him. I didn’t even try to “fix” him. I just wanted him to know that he was loved. It blew him (and me, to be honest) away.
Not too long ago, the other friend’s life began to down downhill. He withdrew from Christian friends and grew bitter towards the church. His moral compass began to get all jacked up. Eventually, this was reflected even in his relationship with God.
To be clear, I think that being gay isn’t what God had in mind when he created Adam and Eve. Moreover, I think that a lot of things are broken in our world and need fixing. However, I know that I can’t fix them and that this sort of thing gets pretty messy. And that’s why when faced with this kind of situation (i.e. encountering a gay Christian), I think of my two friends and the two different routes they took. One seems to be much more redemptive than the other.
Being gay is normal for about 10% of the population. Its not a choice. Ask my son.
i think, to sum it all up, one can be born in such a way as to be tempted to sin (any sin)
simply because we are human
then, the next step is thought
what is in our hearts, is sin
then, the last and most dangerous, is actual impulse
can one be born gay?
well, as cs lewis said, man is half spirit/half animal
so, lets look at animals
giraffes, penguins, and so forth have a lot of homosexual behavior
but, they are pure animal
they dont have morals and such
but as for humans, it says in the bible “for this reason a man shall leave his mother and father and lay with his wife and they will be one flesh”
i think that it’s like a mirror, “sinning against one’s body”
homo sex is like man=man, like a mirror
whereas hetero sex is like man=woman, like a window, or rather a door
being gay is not a sin
but acting on it is
paul the apostle tells us that if we experience these impulses, or temptations, we should remain abstinent, and holy before the Lord
What about a completely sexless gay relationship? (of which I’m sure there are many for whatever reason – just like many married hetro couples end up not having sex at some point in their marriage – young and old)? We tend to think of this whole gay thing it seems as “it’s all about the sex” – and if you read many of the posts here from ones that are gay, they talk about it’s so much more than “just sex” – in fact V mentioned that their sex life is actually challenging just time wise – like any married couple. But what if a gay couple lived together, loved each other, slept together, do all the things a married couple do, but abstained from sex? Would this be considered sin?
John – actually that was one of my major points in a discussion with some friends from my church. They wanted me to know that they love me but they don’t support my “lifestyle” and that I shouldn’t be in any teaching or leadership position in the church. They stated that my partner and I choose to sin daily rather than striving toward freedom in Christ, and that is not a good example to other believers. We began to dialogue about that and they said that the Bible states “man shall not lie with man as with a woman”, so our relationship is sin. I asked if me loving her was sin or if us having a physical relationship was sin. They said that the physical relationship makes it sin – “Being gay isn’t sin, but acting on it is.” I then said, “Well, I don’t choose to sin daily, then. In fact, I rarely sin (referring to physical relationship – God knows I sin all the time) because we don’t have a lot of time for a physical relationship. Honestly, nobody ever asked me if my partner and I were in a physical relationship or if we just love each other. Nobody else gets asked about their sex lives to be qualified for a leadership or teaching position. Why is it that I am judged on something that rarely happens, but everyone assumes that it happens daily? ” Honestly, wish it did, but fact is…it doesn’t. It was more than they needed to know, but it was truth. They still felt I shouldn’t be leading anyone, and couldn’t really say anything back. The “gay sex is sin” but “loving someone of the same sex” doesn’t cut it for me.
Honestly, you have to go one way or another with it.
The law used to be that you couldn’t commit adultery. Then Jesus came, raised the bar, and said that just LUSTING after someone was equal to adultery. So, either it’s all sin or none of it is sin.
I have to say, like I said before, that I believe God is the ONLY author of love and that if two people love each other, it’s because God made that happen. This isn’t just an argument about physical relationships…..it’s so much more.
One more addition to my last post.
Back on the subject of me being judged on my practically non-existent sex life…
There are many people who hide who they are. I choose not to do that. I also don’t rub it in peoples faces. I came forward with information about myself before I accepted a leadership position once I knew I was in love with another woman. I wanted my pastor to know so that it didn’t bite her later when people pitched a fit – because I knew they would.
There are many people out there who are involved in unimaginable things….and those people often sit right next to you in church. Honestly, some of my worst critics are people who are heavily involved in other sins that dramatically hurt them, such as drugs, alcoholism, adultery, pornography, etc… Those people aren’t punished for “who they really are” because they keep it a secret.
I could have hid and not told anyone and never had any problems with people judging me. Why is it that I am punished for being honest?
@V – those people are punished, some greatly – but you may not see it.
btw – if it’s a secret, how do you know that they are involved in such things?
be careful not to assume that you are the only one receiving punishment – they are, too but it may also be hidden
202 comments on this topic.
Great job engaging your community on this one Anne.
Tony –
I agree that they are punished and that I don’t see it. However, they are not punished by the church.
If it is a secret, how do I know that they are involved in such things? – statistically it is proven that they are. Also, there have been many people who have committed crimes for MANY years and are found out only after tons of damage is done. Look at all of the child abuse, etc…
We just had a man who went to our church for over a year get caught for molesting his step-daughter since she was 3 years old. She’s 15 now. She finally told after 12 years of torment and fear. He was one of the number one people who told me I was going to hell for loving a woman.
I am talking about punishment from the church in the form of rejection, discrimination, and judgement….not emotional punishment, spiritual punishment, etc…
No answers here. My uncle is gay. I love him. I really like his life partner too. He claims to know his Savior. I hope so because, in the end, that’s all that matters. Right?
I believe God created us for life, for love….homosexuality can not bring the deepest fulfillment or expression of love….the body parts don’t fit and coming together doesn’t create new life….God gave us the experience of the ultimate human love….a loving committed husband/wife relationship….as a symbol and example of the union He has within Himself (Father, Son, and Spirit deeply committed, in love) and as an example of the kind of committed, deeply fulfilling, and life giving love relationship He wants to have with each of us….
He wants each of us to experience the deepest, most fulfilling love possible…homosexual love can be loving, can want to be all that, but because God created us male and female, and that union alone creates new life….homosexual love can never be the complete, deepest fulfilling love we long for….just a shadow of what we really long for and desire…God wants to heal each of us and fulfill each of us as He placed those desires for love and fulfillment in us….there is Hope….the God who created us, can heal us…..
Ok Amy….I respect your opinion, but I have a few questions…
What about men that have permanent erectile problems? What about sterile people? The parts don’t “fit” together in that case, and with sterility, new life is not formed.
So, what you’re saying is that people who are sterile and people with erectile problems can’t experience the deepest fulfillment of human love?
Really can’t settle for your ‘argument’ for lack of another word.
The bible says homosexuality is an abomination. Sin is sin, if God says it is a sin then it is so. Who are we to question God’s word? Why is it a sin? Because God said so and that should be enough for any Christian. As a Christian we should already understand that we cannot understand God. We are believers by faith because we cannot understand the things God does and how God thinks. So why is there debate or question over God saying that “homosexuality is a sin?” God’s word is final. There are no loop holes, no “what ifs,” and no more reason for homosexuality being a sin than for God saying it is so.
BouasA, I think you have it exactly right. people need to stop wining about it and accept that Christianity has a seriously dark side. Who are we to question God? If he says wearing fabric of 2 different cloths is a sin, we should not wear them. If he says we should stone out insolent sons, we should stone them. If he says women cannot teach, they should not teach. Don’t question, just follow.
This is what I mean. Either the bible is the true word of God and we don’t question it, or it was written through a human filter and we can question it. Your approach is the first one. but, honestly, if you followed every single thing the old and new testament say to do, you would be out right miserable, and so would everyone around you. You have to pick out the ones that work and discard the ones that don’t.
The question really is, “Why do people choose homosexuality to get hung up on?”
You know, this is something I have thought about off and on from time to time.
I have a few friends who are gay, and with some of them, I think I knew they were gay before they did! I have even met a couple of children who were raised in average homes who were OBVIOUSLY leaning toward that inclination.
So, why is it a sin?
The only answer I can even think of will probably not be enough for most.
But as a mother, it rings true:
“Because I said so.”
or, rather:
Because HE said so.
Was it a sin to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?
WHY?
Is is a sin to eat fruit?
Was anyone being hurt by their eating the fruit?
No.
But God told them not to, and when they went against that and did eat out of their own lust to do so, that was sin.
We may never know why some people are born “gay,” and others not.
And I agree that we are far too accepting of *some* sins while eagerly pointing out the sins of others.
But as a mother, I also know this:
Sometimes, my instructions and rules don’t make ANY sense to my children.
Heck, sometimes they don’t even make sense to my husband!
But, I know what’s best for my children and I love them and so, sometimes I ask quite a lot of them.
Anyway, that’s the only answer I can think of. I applaud you for asking the question.
I haven’t had time to read every other comment on this page, but I’ve been stalking as it’s blown up over the past few days. I’ll be quick(ish), I think all of this has been covered:
(a) I’ve personally struggled with this issue
(b) I believe that being born gay is the result of generational curses – is that “fair” ?, of course not, but it is “just” because that is the law of God’s universe until it is perfected
(c) that state of being (as others have said) is not sin, but acting on it is
(d) that state of being can be changed. It’s hard, painful, insert’thissucks’adjectivehere, but it can be done. Philippians 4:13
(e) all of us have something (our ‘thorn in the flesh’) that we struggle with – for some it is more visible than others; none are more or less vile in the eyes of God
(f) the church has often done a fairly crappy job of loving the sinner while hating the sin, not just in relation to this issue. This is to be expected; we’re human and it doesn’t sit well with our sense of justice, that’s why we daily fight our flesh, renew our minds by meditating on His Word, and aim to be more like our Saviour everyday.
Grace, peace, blessing and wisdom to you – and thank you.
@V – ok, i now see the personal issues involved
we are no longer talking reason we are talking pure rationalization of an idea -
i learned a long, long time ago that when reason is excluded things go circular and unproductive very fast – wish you the very best
I don’t have time to read 211 comments, but I have skimmed enough of them.
(sigh)
If it is a sin to be gay, then it is a sin to be a creature made and born in the image of the Divine Creator. And that’s what the Bible says we are: Images of the Creator.
To anyone who claims to be heterosexual and believes that sexual orientation is a sinful “choice,” I challenge you to take a very close look at your own orientation and how you decided that you are “straight.” Did you CHOOSE to be straight? Did you enter puberty and begin to have sexual feelings toward the opposite sex because you CHOSE to or because you simply did? I’m 100% confident that anyone who is intellectually honest will acknowledge that he/she had no control over the genders of the persons to whom they found themselves attracted. Some people may be living a certain lifestyle, forcing themselves to believe that they have a specific orientation when, internally, it is different, but that is not living an authentic (not the Oprah version, but the dictionary meaning) life.
The process of discovering and understanding one’s sexual orientation is the SAME whether you are gay, lesbian, bisexual or heterosexual. Identical.
I believe that the sin is to deny your true sexual orientation or to demand/request that someone else do so. Why? Because that is what displeases the Divine Creator.
So many people are bound up in the notion of bringing “honor to God,” but fail to consider this: If the Divine Creator made you in its image and you deny the validity of its creation (you) by seeking to alter or deny that creation’s inherent characteristics, aren’t you dishonoring the Creator (“God”)? Of course you are!
@ Tony –
Really not trying to be an ass. Am just talking about the facts that noone seems to be able to consider and give me, or anyone else in the gay community, an answer for.
These are all examples of discussions that I have had in the past with gays when I, myself, thought all homosexuals were going to hell….practicing or not.
Funny thing is, I was the most anti-gay person you would meet….and then I realized that I, myself, am gay. God has quite a sense of humor. Changed my tune REALLY quick.
I’m sorry that you feel that I’m not being reasonable. If you truly dive into the heart of the issue with people who live it everyday, you will face those points over and over again.
Best of luck to you too.
Like David Goodman, I have not been able to read all of the comments.
Here is a better question: Why is the burden of proof on Christians to determine if it is a sin? Even if you believe God “smiles” on this and that it is a sin to go against ones own God given orientation, what is the greater good to society for encouraging this behavior? When we talk about this, emotions are often to close to this issue. For a second, think about it rationally.
Scientifically, it is not a preferred mutation and does nothing to advance the civilization as whole. Apart from the idea that people are born this way, why is it beneficial to allow this? The Levitical law were written to help persevere life from generation to generation. The Bible has a Eastern few of society where the whole out weights the rights of the single person. Most of our society today is obese but that doesn’t mean we should continue
This is an argument about individual’s having the right to be happy, not about the whole. I know this is going to a majority rules mindset Being gay is sinful because it is the ultimate in self love/selfishness. Any gay christian has to admit that the typical Gay lifestyle is one where selfishness is applauded. In that case, can the two lifestyles really be intermixed (same goes for the American Dream/The Typical White Middle Class Lifestyle as well).
The amazing thing is that when I was sinning on my spouse before we got married, I could make a really strong case for it from the Bible that God smiled on it. When one of my ex-girlfriends was a feminist and I wanted to stay with her, I could make a strong case from the Bible that God was a feminist too. When we are trapped in sin and worshiping the false idol of our own thoughts, it is amazing what we can rationalize.
I know no one would chose this. Neither would a blind man, the lame, or the deaf. Nor would any one else born with diabetes or progeria. Some are born eunuchs and must celebrate that. Some are born sterile and that should be celebrated. Didn’t Abram get in trouble when he tried taking baby making into his own hands? The arguments about heterosexual couple not being able to procreate is dealt with in the Bible directly.
So I ask again: how is being gay a positive step in our culture scientifically?
I don’t know if this will help your friend or not, but I wrote a book about how God delivered me from a life of homosexuality. I had always assumed I was born gay, but after an incredible encounter with God, He set me free.
The book is called ‘Straight…from Hell’ and its available at donnafrank.com or on amazon.com. I don’t want this comment to be a commercial for my book, but I do want to see people get free. Be blessed.
I want to thank all of those who shared comments. Your comments literally became a lesson this evening. I am a youth worker and have been given a burden for gay youth in my community. Tonight I took every comment and cut to create 200+ statements on the topic. In groups my youth read and discussed your comments. You provided a powerful starting place to have a grace-filled discussion. There were multiple youth in the room with same-sex attraction or same-sex experiences. An adult shared how he had once years ago advised a senior in high school to not admit struggles with being gay. Days later the student shot and killed himself stating, he didn’t want to bring shame on his family and God. What a poignant reminder that we must lead with love and be filled with grace.
I am constantly challenging myself with a quote from Billy Graham, shared with me by Andy Marin of the Marin Foundation, “It’s the Holy Spirit’s job to convict, God’s job to judge, and my job to love.”
Thanks for being part of our ministry.
@V -just want you to know that i am absolutely not ? your salvation
Thanks Tony.
I was truly enjoying the discussion. So many people look at it as cut-n-dried gay is sin and you’re going to hell. It’s not that simple. I appreciate all of the dialogue rather than just going “because God said so and that should be enough”, “we shouldn’t question God because we can’t understand why He does what He does”, etc…
I loved Anne’s post today. I think it’s right to question things so we can better understand them. It’s the only way we will ever draw closer to God.
Thanks again….and don’t forget – the One who knows you best loves you most. =)
The only commenter that seems to have any desire for a answer that might agree with the Word or with God or His eternal plan for Pete’s sake (vs. our sweet personal ideas of “How I think life should be.”) is #9 above – Brice Bohrer. Most other commenters, the author included, seem to simply enjoy the thrill of debate and the thrill of making simple things complicated. Makes us feel intelligent and oh so open-minded and cool.
I think the author and most commenters are correct when assessing the fact that most “Christians” feel justified in judging gays for their “sin”, and then conveniently ignoring their own gossip, unforgiveness, and judgemental hard hearts. They think that they please Jesus by separating themselves from the “sinners”. It’s wrong and hypocritical. I agree with you. But to swing the pendulum completely in the other direction where we pat a sinner on the back and say “There, there. God loves everyone. Those Christians are just mean spirited and probably not saved.” because you can’t deal with what the Bible says.
Homosexuality distorts the picture God intends to paint. It was the Enemy’s idea. Not an innocent human’s idea. Our enemy knows of God’s plan for HIs people and His kingdom and Eternity – and the devil’s plan is to distort it in EVERY possible way. Instead of trying to find ways to come into agreement with the enemy’s distortions of God’s plans, we’d be a better friend to people (ALL people, not just gays but every sinner – myself included) if we help them see what God has to say about it and stop trying to simply fit our weaknesses into the plan.
When the enemy convinces me to feel good about my sin, be it unforgiveness, gossip, judgemental attitudes, resentment, etc. , my “friend” is not helping me by saying, “It’s OK girl. You’ve been dealt a bad hand in life. You go ahead and hate, or judge, or withhold forgiveness, or lie or gossip. God didn’t mean what He said when he called those things sin. Let’s talk about this until we feel good about your sin.”
Again, I believe that God smiles when kind-hearted folks maintain relationships with gays and love them and show God’s love to them. He didn’t call us to point and mock and judge. He called us to love, love, love. But sometimes, love calls us to tell the truth and seek God for bigger things than we can “figure out” on our own.
He’s God. If we could know everything – here and now – that He thinks and knows, then we’d be God too. I do know this. When we agree with God about what HE calls sin, and what HE calls real love, He is quick to help us make sense of “things”. Personally, I have trouble with some things He calls love. I have trouble “doing good to those who hate you.” God calls THAT love. I have to work HARD to get anywhere close to that kind of love – My flesh wants to ignore the person who hates me or does evil toward me. THAT”S what I think. But I wasn’t put her to “think” myself through those tough issues. I am her to meet, and get to know the Creator and discover HIS will for my life and conform my life – with the help of HIs Spirit – to His life, His ways, His Word, His plan and HIS definitions of good and evil.
I don’t know why some people only have to deal with simple things in life while others have to deal with abuse, or abandonment, or homosexuality or other things that consume us. I don’t know. But I know that God can be trusted. And I know that if we seek HIM and not our own understanding, or what a group of us can come together and “decide” about sin or any other thing, He will speak, and answer and deliver something Holy and Divine and far higher than we can come up with in our discussion groups.
Here’s the thing. Gays, or anyone else (myself included) struggling with life’s difficulties, are all complex, emotional, valuable, amazing beings – made in God’s image. Regardless of how “gay” we are or are not, God’s love doesn’t change. We should be leading people towards THAT love. That unconditional, unending, hard to understand LOVE. Our discussions won’t comfort a heart that is confused. Our discussions won’t help a struggling person sleep at night. Our discussions won’t deliver people from darkness and confusion to light and certainty and love. Seeking His face will.
Me again (from comment #219). Commenter #215, Donna Frank, mentions her book. If any commenter here is serious about being a friend to gays, and not just interested in the discussions for the sake of debate, her book is a must read. If you love your gay friends, like Jesus loves them, read it.
i am new to this whole blog world and sorry I entered this conversation so late. I don’t really know proper idicate when participateing in such internet coversations so Anne go ahead and delete me if I am of base or just an idiot I would appreciate the filter. I also have only read a couple dozen of these comments so I don’t know if it has been talked about yet, but i just love the question why?
I think that God loves that question, he wired it in us I believe so that he could write a text a couple of thousand years ago and have it be relevant for generations to come and any culture God benifet from his teachings because he made us ask why. As long as we can ask it without bringing judgement on God like he could be wrong thatn it is the most healthy question around and will only bring us closer to him which is his why he made us and what he enjoys most about his creation, that we would seek him. Sorry this is more an answer to your latest question so moving on.
I think that acting outside God’s design has extreme dangers just as acting in God’s plan has amazing benifets. I believe God made men and woman to be be together and he made them complete opposites for a purpose. There are many reasons why i think God made us this why that he lists in the bible, but the most obivous one, that I hope is will end all discusion for a few moments so i can get to my piont, is the fact that God gave men a penus and woman a Vagina and they go together nicely, Now God bless creativety, but I know that he made those for a purpose and for sex to be many things but one of the more important ones is that it is a way for husband and wife to become one flesh and to draw close to eachother and to God. God isn’t in heaven covering his eyes saying “oh I don’t know why they do this, don’t look gabriel this is the part I don’t like.” He deisgned it to be pure and holy and beautiful.
So why did God make man and woman to be so opposite but yet have such a beautiful way to connect and be close. I believe it is because the harder it is to love and understand someone the greater that love can be, and the deeper that love can be. I believe that man and woman are diferent in so many ways as a protection to us.
Let me clarify, this is the big danger I believe in being attracted to the same sex. If you can think back to being in high school and even at any age how horrible girls can be to each other and how easy it is for them to hurt each other. I believe at first it is easyier to fall in love with a woman if you are a woman, thus its allure there are commonnalitys, and you have simular intrests and sure there are struggles to any relationship but I believe it is easier or homosexuality wouldn’t be so allureing. This means we can fall in love deep, deep love without much tension much heartache and give the ablity for another person to hurt us in ways that no one else could hurt us. Woman can hurt woman in ways that cut deeper than any man could do to a woman. I know that man can have affairs and say horrible things but, ultimatly woman now how to cut deep because they are who they are hurting. The same is true for men, you think that men just punch each other and it is over, that isn’t the case when two men are so in touch with a side of them that most men never tap into. They can lash out in ways that woman could only dream of. and both sex’s know the best ways to fight dirty and usaully do when hurt by a member of the same sex. I have seen friends of mine just wrecked by there relationship with others of the same sex and they just go right back into another one, the same is true of anyone who isn’t beaten by there spouse of verbally assualted by another and go right back to that relationship, it is easy which looks complecated to those on the outside but to the one going through it it is all they know and it is the easiest way to get love. So when we say that homosexuality doesn’t anyone we are lying to ourselves it hurts youself and can hurt your partner and that is why God warns us about it. It is a sin because we are acting outside God’s plan or design for us, which is why any sin is a sin. God died on the cross and said it is done, He paid the way for us sin is no longer the issue, sin seperates us from God and he made a way so that it won’t anymore, and when we do it it brings harm to ourselves and to others and from feeling the love of God. God’s love is constant and unchangeing and unconditional but when we act is sin there is this disconnect isn’ there. It is on our end not on God’s because he aches and he burns and he just continally pours out his love on us.
That is God’s design for marriage, though it can never be as deep, when we get married we are to be 100% for the other person in that relationship. To love them unconditionally, to love them constantly, to be unchanging in love. I love my wife more than anything and we have these fights and these knock down hillbilly dragouts but we care about each other so much and we can be mean and cruel and not understand were the other is coming from but, at the end of the day we figure out how to get along and to love eachother and it is so great. I have only been married five years but it is amazing how much more I love my wife than the day I meet her and I can’t imagine what or relationship will be like fifty years from now but I know that it will be great. I am sure you could apply this principle to homosexuals and that it could be harder to get along with that ablity to hurt so deep and that coming back from that would great and I have seen it and it can be a recipe for disaster as each time it excalates into deeper pain and pretty soon it is to hard to come back from. and you are left a shattered mess. I belive hat God wired men and woman to be different enough to protect us from this. i know it happens. I don’t have any answers here these are just thoughts I have and they could be wrong. I ask that you don’t slam them or dicard them but these are i issues I think about when asked questions like this what are the benifits to God’s design why di say that, what are the dangers that are involved when I go against God’s design.
I think that many of you could some much better insights to my piont here because I am not that smart you all really seemn to be from what I read and I look forward to your thoughts. i just care a great deal about those who struggle with this, I believe as Christians we are to help and not hinder there relationship with God. I don’t believe in passing laws that stop them from getting married as if that solves anyhting or helps anyone with there struggle, or helps them see God the way we as christians see God. Infact it seems to do the exact opposite and it make it difficult for me as a christian to share with my friends that are gay and its hard for them to see past the hate and see the love that God has lavished on us. The love that is constant, unchanging, unconditional the love that you cannot not expierance if you just let God in.
Thank you for listening and I hope this just at least gets you thinking as I don’t yet have a clear answer to the question, but through talking we can maybe find that out.
@Whozep68 Please don’t try to justify your religiously inspired views on sexuality through science. You will fail. From what I have learned, there is no scientific reason to not accept homosexuality. There are only ideological reasons.
Can we try this with one word exchanged?
“Scientifically, skin color is not a preferred mutation and does nothing to advance the civilization as whole. Apart from the idea that people are born this way, why is it beneficial to allow this? ”
Your argument does not work.
“how is being gay a positive step in our culture scientifically?”
How is the fact that our genetics are so easily manipulated and negatively mutated (anencephaly, cancer, Grave’s disease, etc) a positive step in our culture scientifically?
How is the fact that we eat and breath through the same tube a positive step in our culture scientifically?
How is the fact that we only have 2 arms a positive step in our culture scientifically?
Science is positive, negative and everything in between. Science is merely empirical reality, it has no agenda.
@D – “Most other commenters, the author included, seem to simply enjoy the thrill of debate and the thrill of making simple things complicated.”
uh, D – yep, she’s the author of this (and a few other readable transcripts) and it’s her blog – funny how that works isn’t it? :))
Philip Yancey tells a story about a friend he had in What’s so Amazing about Grace? It’s a great book, I don’t remember the details, will need to reread that. All that to say simple that he expressed some of these things.