Comments on: tracking tithing http://flowerdust.net/2008/10/14/tracking-tithing/ Author, Blogger, Speaker, Bad Driver Fri, 19 Mar 2010 13:31:43 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Tom Becker http://flowerdust.net/2008/10/14/tracking-tithing/#comment-223976 Tom Becker Wed, 18 Feb 2009 14:13:02 +0000 http://www.flowerdust.net/?p=1297#comment-223976 Michelle, this isn't about tithing, it's about tithing being tracked by the pastors. It happens in most churches and it shouldn't, period end of discussion. Michelle, this isn’t about tithing, it’s about tithing being tracked by the pastors. It happens in most churches and it shouldn’t, period end of discussion.

]]> By: Michelle http://flowerdust.net/2008/10/14/tracking-tithing/#comment-223942 Michelle Wed, 18 Feb 2009 05:36:52 +0000 http://www.flowerdust.net/?p=1297#comment-223942 The bible says will a man rob God? Yet has he robbed me in tithes and offering. Every member of the church is supposed to pay their tithes 10% and give and offering of love from their heart. If people really love God and his word, they would have no problem giving like the bible says. The person recording the tithes and offering on the computer is the only one that knows which worker is giving or not. At our church all workers are required to follow the bible and pay their tithes and give an offering, including the pastor and wife. If you can't follow this plan established by God himself then you don't need to work in the church and be a hypocrite. The bible says will a man rob God? Yet has he robbed me in tithes and offering. Every member of the church is supposed to pay their tithes 10% and give and offering of love from their heart. If people really love God and his word, they would have no problem giving like the bible says. The person recording the tithes and offering on the computer is the only one that knows which worker is giving or not. At our church all workers are required to follow the bible and pay their tithes and give an offering, including the pastor and wife. If you can’t follow this plan established by God himself then you don’t need to work in the church and be a hypocrite.

]]> By: Ryan http://flowerdust.net/2008/10/14/tracking-tithing/#comment-213750 Ryan Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:47:20 +0000 http://www.flowerdust.net/?p=1297#comment-213750 I also have another comment on Leading from hypocrisy: a hypocrite is someone who wears a mask or multiple ones in the course of drama, a hypocrite is what Jesus called the pharisees, who gave to the Roman Government called it tithing, took glory for it but keeping public records of it, yet that same Roman Government killed their messiah, raped their women, oppressed their people. Putting someone in a place of hypocrisy is a silly statement because you can never force someone to wear a mask they are already wearing, that is of course unless the office of elder/pastor is a mask and not a mantle. I also have another comment on Leading from hypocrisy: a hypocrite is someone who wears a mask or multiple ones in the course of drama, a hypocrite is what Jesus called the pharisees, who gave to the Roman Government called it tithing, took glory for it but keeping public records of it, yet that same Roman Government killed their messiah, raped their women, oppressed their people. Putting someone in a place of hypocrisy is a silly statement because you can never force someone to wear a mask they are already wearing, that is of course unless the office of elder/pastor is a mask and not a mantle.

]]> By: Ryan http://flowerdust.net/2008/10/14/tracking-tithing/#comment-213749 Ryan Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:32:09 +0000 http://www.flowerdust.net/?p=1297#comment-213749 Bottom line of the discussion comes to reasonable forms of accountability. If we were called to be leaders the bible points to accountability through fruit of that leader, wicked leaders were called wicked not because of their actions per say (should I point to David?) but because of the fruit of their leadership, while this may seem a little Machiavellian, it is biblical, (may I not also point to Solomon). Accountability among peers in an organization (that's right the senior pastor is a peer- if Jesus is not at the top of your leader chart your already have issues) is not mandated, it is earned as a place of trust, that said any pastor who holds someone into account does so out of a relationship within and beyond the pastoral office. If we cannot trust staff members who say they give in cash, the issue is trust not the cash. But I do see the position of over-seer (elder) now what we call "pastor" equally not to be in a point of sin as it relates to greed and the love of money. Although I appreciate the comments about cash/check giving, accountability and leadership. Leaders do influence, but as we see from the biblical witness it comes from the partnership with the human leader and the divine God (not making Leadership more divine as any other gifting), why else call men to servant leadership, dieing to ourselves, taking up crosses? I think much of the time the church borrows business terms without understanding them (like accountability, leadership etc.) I look to guys like Seth Godin who argue EVERYONE is a leader who influences people in and around them, whether on the platform or the audience the standards are the same. While none of these terms or using them is in any way non beneficial, many pastors, as I have observed many, seem to impose those words and schema upon the biblical foundations. I know i may get flack from this, but it is an issue of stewardship. ALL money is God's, you can't "rob" but you can mismanage and spend it like its yours. And we see the consequences to it. Asking pastors to manage the giving of others, is like testing the bed sheets in someone else's marriage to make sure they are not adulterous, or asking them to install car speed monitors in their car. At the end of the day any argument from "leadership" alone or one that demands accountability is shallow, it takes us and puts it in the judgment seat of God, where one pastor may have a problem with "giving" the lead pastor may have a problem with leading his family or working too much, not exercising enough, or copyright infringement without citing sources, should we then have all schedules/agenda's turned in to the senior pastor, sermons turned in for review, radar guns in the church parking lot? I guess it turns the holy office of "Elder" into something wholly other - a Policemen. As God did with Aiken and other leaders in biblical witnesses God holds them to account. Case in point many pastors are on a power trip and money in many ways is a snare that gives them security, pays their salary, gives them the not for profit benefits, and what businessmen would not want to protect "security". Bottom line of the discussion comes to reasonable forms of accountability. If we were called to be leaders the bible points to accountability through fruit of that leader, wicked leaders were called wicked not because of their actions per say (should I point to David?) but because of the fruit of their leadership, while this may seem a little Machiavellian, it is biblical, (may I not also point to Solomon). Accountability among peers in an organization (that’s right the senior pastor is a peer- if Jesus is not at the top of your leader chart your already have issues) is not mandated, it is earned as a place of trust, that said any pastor who holds someone into account does so out of a relationship within and beyond the pastoral office. If we cannot trust staff members who say they give in cash, the issue is trust not the cash. But I do see the position of over-seer (elder) now what we call “pastor” equally not to be in a point of sin as it relates to greed and the love of money. Although I appreciate the comments about cash/check giving, accountability and leadership. Leaders do influence, but as we see from the biblical witness it comes from the partnership with the human leader and the divine God (not making Leadership more divine as any other gifting), why else call men to servant leadership, dieing to ourselves, taking up crosses? I think much of the time the church borrows business terms without understanding them (like accountability, leadership etc.) I look to guys like Seth Godin who argue EVERYONE is a leader who influences people in and around them, whether on the platform or the audience the standards are the same. While none of these terms or using them is in any way non beneficial, many pastors, as I have observed many, seem to impose those words and schema upon the biblical foundations. I know i may get flack from this, but it is an issue of stewardship. ALL money is God’s, you can’t “rob” but you can mismanage and spend it like its yours. And we see the consequences to it. Asking pastors to manage the giving of others, is like testing the bed sheets in someone else’s marriage to make sure they are not adulterous, or asking them to install car speed monitors in their car. At the end of the day any argument from “leadership” alone or one that demands accountability is shallow, it takes us and puts it in the judgment seat of God, where one pastor may have a problem with “giving” the lead pastor may have a problem with leading his family or working too much, not exercising enough, or copyright infringement without citing sources, should we then have all schedules/agenda’s turned in to the senior pastor, sermons turned in for review, radar guns in the church parking lot? I guess it turns the holy office of “Elder” into something wholly other – a Policemen. As God did with Aiken and other leaders in biblical witnesses God holds them to account. Case in point many pastors are on a power trip and money in many ways is a snare that gives them security, pays their salary, gives them the not for profit benefits, and what businessmen would not want to protect “security”.

]]> By: Tom http://flowerdust.net/2008/10/14/tracking-tithing/#comment-213744 Tom Mon, 10 Nov 2008 05:29:23 +0000 http://www.flowerdust.net/?p=1297#comment-213744 To Ryan #55 and Ashley #45, My heart goes out to you guys. My wife and I went through a similar experience a couple years ago, and if you two would like to compare notes so to speak or just share together I would be more than willing. I can't speak for my wife Sally but I would be willing to talk if you guys want to. She may join in, I don't know. I'm taking a chance but here's my e-mail address. btsbecker@aol.com Tom Becker To Ryan #55 and Ashley #45,

My heart goes out to you guys. My wife and I went through a similar experience a couple years ago, and if you two would like to compare notes so to speak or just share together I would be more than willing. I can’t speak for my wife Sally but I would be willing to talk if you guys want to. She may join in, I don’t know. I’m taking a chance but here’s my e-mail address. btsbecker@aol.com

Tom Becker

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