lately i’ve been thinking a lot about marriage and divorce. i have several friends who are divorced, and family members as well. i also have some who are existing in completely terrible marriages…where there is abuse, or deep incompatibility, or other issues.
one of my friends who is divorced left because her husband was abusive in many ways. another friend of mine signed the papers because his wife had, for lack of a better term, gone completely crazy and it was not, and could not be, a healthy relationship because she wasn’t willing to get help.
i never thought i would be one to think divorce was okay, but in some of these cases, i really think it could be. now, please, save me the hate mail…i realize that some people’s stance on this issue is very hard core “DIVORCE IS NEVER EVER EVER RIGHT.” i used to be one of those people…but now, i kind of wonder if it is just as black and white as we have made it to be.
for instance, why is divorce any worse than a married couple living a complete lie? or staying together “just for the kids” when they have loads of resentment they are unwilling to work through? or knowing one or the other is having an affair and letting it continue? why is divorce any worse than a husband and wife being more like roommates (if they are even that?)
just some things that have been in my head lately…i don’t claim to have any answers or even that what i’m thinking is any kind of right. any thoughts?
Divorce sucks. I have not gone through it in my marraige as a divorcee but my parents are going through it right now.
I think my stance is much like yours kind of….i had a friend who was in court as a character whitness for the wife and when they were pronounced no longer man and wife she was sick to her stomach.
Wether you know it at the time of marriage or not you are not only making a covenant with the other person but with God as well. My opinion, and i am sorry if i step on some ties is that if you are praying and seeking God….let me take that back, if both parties are praying and seeking God i dont think you would get to the place where divorce even comes up. it will force you to be selfless….becuase it isnt about you.
But in abuse situations….GET OUT!
so, i think in some situations it is ok and other not….but i think it is a very personal thing that the couple has to decide with a healthy fear of God.
Just my thoughts.
this post is a bit refreshing…i was raised that divorce was wrong viewing it in black and white, but getting older, having gotten married (happily, i might add) i realized there are few, if any, things in life that are black and white…being married, miserable and/or abused is no way to live
Obviously divorce is hard for all parties. This might be a weird take on it. I would not be here had my mom not had a divorce. Nor would I have an amazing older brother, sister-in-law or niece that I love and adore. We may officially be titled stepbrothers, but we are brothers. We don’t ever use the term step-brother. So I can agree that good can come out of it. It is just really rough at the time though.
http://cosmos-liturgy-sex.com/2008/09/09/divorce-is-a-great-idea/
Anne,
Great topic. Thanks for “tweeting” it, as my RSS Blogroll at Google Reader is … well, blown up.
My wonderful wife of 10+ years was previously married. I’m a minister – a Worship Pastor, and I had to wrestle with the whole “divorce/adultery” issue when I realized that not only was I madly in love with her, but I felt God was calling her to be my wife.
She was in a horrible situation … her former husband was a tormented alcoholic … she never even knew he drank prior to their honeymoon. It was a life of alcoholism and deception. Earlier this year, we learned that he (the former husband) had moved on, remarried, but was still tormented, and sadly, he took his own life. I can say I’m glad that my wife wasn’t left holding that, yet we grieve his loss, and those he left behind.
While separated, she was diagnosed with acute leukemia, and her prognosis was pretty bleak. With radical treatments, she had a very low percentage to live. She went through 6+ months of brutal chemo, bone marrow biopsies, the works …. lost her hair, her job, her everything … and literally signed the “papers” in her hospital bed. Praise God, now nearly a dozen years later, she’s still healed, 4 beautiful kids, and a great marriage (well, we work on that part!).
All that to say – we’re so blessed that God has brought us together. Yet, if you ask her, she would tell you a thousand times, and I quote:
“I would go through life threatening leukemia a thousand more times than I’d ever want to go through divorce again”.
For the Kingdom,
Fred McKinnon
http://www.fredmckinnon.com
http://www.theworshipcommunity.com
http://josephallyngomez.com/?p=12
Divorce was the best thing that happened for my husband and I.
HUH?! LOL. We were both divorcees when we met and we both believe that God brought us together (in a traffic jam of all places!)
We were told in one church that God couldn’t use us if we were divorced. We left because we figured they’d never read their Bible.
I feel pretty strongly about casting stones at situations that God is in control of.
Anne,
Good, thought-provoking post. I wish I had those answers as well. I question why the divorce rate is so high, especially among so-called christians!
If we base our lives on the on the biblical doctrine that divorce is not right and a sin (except in the cases mentioned in the bible) then we have to admit that yes, divorce may be the “best” solution for us in our world, but it is not what God wants and is looked at as a sin. What constitutes the “best” for us may take us farther away from God, though so my recommendation is to tread very carefully around that issue.
As a counterpoint, is divorce any different than other sins? What about gluttony? I see soooo many very overweight people who can’t all have a thyroid problem. For some it is just plain overeating and over indulgence. I compare that with how the rest of the world lives – 1/3 of them in poverty. Are we sinng (gluttony) when we are grossly overweight? Is that worse than divorce? What about homosexuality?!
I don’t have the answers…I think part of this comes down to we are all sinners and broken people. Some have large, glaring sins that stand out and some people do a great job of covering up their sins so no one else sees them. At the end of the day, we all fall short. So divorce is not ‘worse’ than other sins, nor is it ‘better’ than some sins. It is just sin and separates us from God.
i couldn’t agree with you more. which is why i am so all about courting and dating longer than a lot of Christian do nowadays. for some reason people seem to think that dating and being engaged for a long time, as Christians, is pointless… just get married already. but i think it is important to know each other and be with each other first. heck, i know couples who got engaged 2 or 3 months after meeting, married after their 6th month anniversary. how much can you really know about a person after such a short amount of time?
generally, divorce isn’t the answer to unhealthy marriages. both parties need to come together and try… but if all efforts for help have been exhausted and you’re still miserable in your marriage, i don’t think that was God’s intention for marriage. especially if violence and/or infidelity is at the helm of it.
Let me add fuel to the fire.
Divorce is one thing…but I know some women are offended when I bring up the two dreaded words….”Prenuptial Agreement”
So if you’re permitting divorce as an option (especially when the excuse is ‘irreconcilable differences’), either party should NOT be offended when Prenuptial Agreement topic is raised.
I’ve also seen enough of unhappy, mentally/verbally abusive marriages, men who bend over backwards for verbally abusive women, etc…women who only care about money, etc. I just can’t let somebody take away half of my family’s fortune just because the law ‘says so’.
Fair is fair.
Let the fire grows bigger…..
It is a hard topic. When you look at scripture on the topic you find that it mainly deals not primarily with divorce, but rather remarriage.
In Malachi it says that God hates divorce, it obviously isn’t His design for marriage. So while there may be instances where divorce may be necessary, like abuse or an unsafe situation, there are really only two circumstances where remarriage is permitted – adultery and abandonment by a non-believing spouse.
Remarriage, I believe can happen later on as well if your ex gets married – reconciliation at that point is no longer an option.
Statistics have shown that the incidence of divorce goes up with each marriage a person enters into.
Dallas Willard had some interesting things to say in “The Divine Conspiracy” about divorce. He also mentioned a few things worth reading here:
http://www.dwillard.org/articles/artview.asp?artID=98
While I wait for somebody to respond on my prenuptial agreement topic, I’ll add another question
Since looks like Christian marriage is not much different than any other marriage (divorce, abuse, infidelity, lack of forgiveness, lack of grace, lack of ______(fill in the blanks), what is the use of getting married in church? What is the use of worshipping every Sunday if the attitude of worship doesn’t carry out from Monday to Saturday?
If Christians are as unloving (or in many cases MUCH LESS loving) than non-Christian, what is the point in believing in Christ? I’m in NO WAY a ‘perfect’ Christian, but I’m always curious about the point of some people really gung-ho, put on their best faces/dress/shirt on Sunday, but act no different than non-Christians on any other day?
There’s gotta be more on being a Christian than just “Great, God has died for my sins and that’s it”
Again- I know I’m still doing lots of things wrong as a Christian, but this is something also that I’ve struggled with, especially interacting with other Christians lately (read: People who frequent church more than once a week or at least talk about it).
I’ll tackle your questions one by one.
“why is divorce any worse than a married couple living a complete lie?”
Any worse? If a couple is living a complete lie then they have already turned their backs on God and each other – which are both sins that need to be repented of. No, it isn’t a greater sin, how is it that sinning more is the “best choice” to fix the consequences of “sin”?
“… or staying together ?just for the kids? when they have loads of resentment they are unwilling to work through?”
Again, you are fixing sin with more sin. That doesn’t make any sense. Again, both parties are sinning with their hearts. They need to get right with God and each other, not divorce. If they aren’t willing to get right with God or each other, then this divorce has nothing to do with Christianity, and frankly, I question whether those getting divorced are really Christians. Certainly a hard heart, refusing to repent of sin, refusing to obey Jesus in his commands to love one another, and keeping their promises to each other to not forsake one another all seem to indicate that they may not really have accepted Jesus into their hearts. Many will cry out, “Lord, Lord” but Jesus will not know them. I am not pretending to know the status of people’s salvation, but if I were their pastor, I would have to start asking some tough questions of them about the state of their faith.
“… or knowing one or the other is having an affair and letting it continue?”
Here’s one where I can agree with you. If one is sinning by adultery and the other is not, then while God hates divorce, God does clearly permit divorce in this instance. It isn’t sin to divorce when one is committing adultery.
Further, I would extend this, as Jesus did, to sins of the heart. If a man or woman is entrapped in pornography and will not forsake that sin, I would consider that cause for divorce on the basis of adultery. They are committing adultery in their heart and doing real damage to their spouse and family, not to mention themselves.
“…why is divorce any worse than a husband and wife being more like roommates (if they are even that?)”
If a couple is content living sexlessly, who are we to stand in their way? But, God does clearly command husbands and wives to fulfil their duties – not just physically, but emotionally and psychologically. If a couple’s relationship had deteriorated to “friendship” and one or both wish for a divorce, then I would have to stand against it if I were their pastor. They need to return to their first love and fulfil the duties they promised to. Just because they have been lazy and have let their love die is no reason not to humble themselves before their God and pray for their hearts to be restored for each other – to repent of their lack of concern for each other and start obeying God together.
I guess what I am trying to say is that in most cases, divorce is solving a spiritual problem by destroying something that is God’s. It is avoiding dealing with your Saviour by blaming your spouse.
If we wonder why the church is falling apart and Christians have the same rate of divorce or worse than non-Christians, I point to this. It is a lack of regard for the faith they have, the God they have, and their own obligations that come from being a Christian. Too many people claim the name but don’t walk in His footsteps. Put simply, the church has been allowed to be filled with the unsaved who think they are saved because they prayed a “get out of jail free” prayer.
As a culture, we’ve made divorce way too convenient, and I firmly believe it’s because we don’t take marriage seriously. If a boat captain in an Elvis suit can marry you, and three days later you can annul it, where’s the seriousness? If we placed a greater emphasis on marriage, divorce would be a non issue.
Shane got good answers.
(and no- I won’t have Elvis to officiate my wedding..thank you..thank youverymuch)
I was “in the middle” of divorce as a kid….more than once…a few times with remarriage of parents. My dad has been married multiple times now. It never gets easy for a kid to deal with divorce..even a grown one! :)
My wonderful husband was married way before we met. He had been divorced about 3 years when we became friends. He had a wife who commited adultry…flat out…didn’t care who knew. I had some tell me NOT to date him..he’s divorced..you can do better! That burned me up. Who better to understand my fellow than someone who had been there as a kid! I knew how it felt to deal with divorce..how important marriage was…and how I never wanted to be divorced…EVER!
Good topic to talk about Anne.
The problem is usually letting things go…not keeping God first….learning how to communicate and forgive.
I agree with you Anne. It is not a popular opinion to have, especially being on staff at an Evangelical church- but I agree. I saw divorce take my parents marriage after 23 years- I was 16. They stayed together for the kids. Can I tell you as a kid in that marriage- they should have divorced when we were small- not in our teenage years. That didn’t help my brother or I.
Now as an adult with an 18 year marriage that has- by the grace of God- made it through our trials, I see the same thing you do. I hear people say- “Oh my goodness! Can you believe so and so left so and so???” I say -”Yes- I can believe it”.
I have seen so many people all but destroy their families because they just won’t let it end. It does end up hurting everyone involved. If ‘Sam’ dosen’t love ‘Sally’ anymore….. and ‘Sam’ isn’t going to go to counseling, and Sam just wants it to be over…. then lets just end it civilly.
No- divorce isn’t fun. It isn’t pleasent. But neither is the tension that is felt in the home of a marriage that has run it’s course.
Anne, I dont know how to answer those questions because I have not yet gotten married (I want to) – but I do know one thing, churches are not preparing people for marriage they way they are supposed to. Most churches have gone away from having singles ministries and when they do, these are the toics they discuss mostly: being content and single, serving more because you are single and have the time, singleness is a gift and several other topics that “glorify” singleness… In the meantime statistic shows that 77% of girls when they become Christian they dont date for over 2 yrs or more, people are marrying later and later (at least in California) putting our chance to reporduce in jeopardy…The bible says in Genesis, not revelations or psalms or any other book later on that “it is not good for men to be alone” and yet a lot of pastors who got married “at 22″ in a small town somewhere, may not have the sensitivity or experience to understand the urgency of people teaching them to have good marriages and to choose their mates in their best “marriable” years to continue to multiply, if we were better prepared for marriage maybe the divorce rate would be lower? just a thought, but we singles are totally on our own as far as finding Godly mates. The church cares that “were Pure and Content” as long as you have those two theyre happy…
Oh well I dont know if you “got” all that but it felt good discussing it :) thanks for the forum.
I guess nobody reads or willing to answer my question?
Hum – good question. I am a huge believer that marriage can really be everyday wonderful if both people are serving God.
I believe some Christian couples rely on the fact that divorce isn’t an option and so they mistreat each other because they think that their faith is enough to keep them together. It’s wrong.
I’m searching my heart on this issue…
I agree, Anne. Some marriages have no hope of becoming any more than a life sentence, and divorce is the only alternative. But I think we get caught in thinking marriage means just staying together.
To me, part of the commitment in marriage is to the marriage. This means not bearing witness to shameful, out-of-control behavior by a spouse unable to control his or rage. It means taking all necessary actions to protect yourself and your children, including living apart if necessary, until your spouse deals with an addiction or anger problem or — if the problem is due to incurable illness — until you gather the resources to provide that protection in your home. It’s next to impossible to restore a marriage after you’ve both watched one of you behave shamefully over and over. The time to act is well before you lose faith in your spouse.
It also means being true to yourself and creating a life that uses your God-given talents well. Staying, full of resentment, in a bad marriage wastes your talents and robs your kids of encouragement, love, and good models for marriage. Rather than suffer as long as possible, then leave in anger, why not seek outside help immediately if you and your spouse cannot discover a way to fulfill both your dreams? Why not do it while there’s still love in your heart, before you start putting each other down? There is often a Third Alternative to the two possibilities you argue over, one both of you will like as much or more than those two.
When you can see the water draining out of the tub, it’s crazy to wait until it’s completely empty before you deal with the problem of running out of water. But once it’s empty, I agree, there’s not much to recommend continuing to sit in it.
Thanks for the chance to discuss this, Anne. I would wish a happy marriage for everyone.
Thanks for this post Anne. I’ve been to hell and back through my divorce and i’m still a christian and am still very much saved. I’m also extremely happy with my life and am looking forward to getting married again someday and raising a family.I appreciate your willingness to bring this up and create the conversation. Life is not as black and white as some people would like to believe. Those that see this issue very clearly as black and white probably have never been through a divorce much less even close to thinking it could be an option.
what makes me thankful is knowing the God loves me no matter what…divorced or not. He still loves me.
i tend to align with John Ortberg’s teaching (thus, my consideration of him as a mentor-from-afar), and largely do on this topic.
sorry for no direct link, but he spoke on this at Menlo Park PC on 03/11/07 and the message can be accessed via the Sermons Online page at their site – http://www.mppc.org
i’ve been wondering this same thing lately also. there are biblical reasons for divorce. i don’t have the answers either. just wondering the same thing you are.
I recently interviewed a lady about her road to divorce. She was in an abusive relationship but wanted to do the right thing according to scripture. She searched the scriptures and spoke to many Biblical scholars to try to get a handle on what the Bible ‘really’ says about divorce.
http://rodneyolsen.net/2008/09/abuse-adultery-and-desertion.html
people in church get married for the wrong reasons and divorced for the same. I have several friends that married “Godly” men, who only to find they were living with complete jerks.
Its obvious that the church does not have a problem with divorce in actuality because 50% of professing christians are divorcing. So, lip service can only go so far. If the church hates divorce then stop picking mates from over spiritualized hype and fantasy, don’t expect anything outside what is humadn from your spouse but do expect God to move and perfect you both until he’s done with you.
my mom is really emotionally unhealthy and extraordinarily abusive to the people around her. and she refuses to get help. my parents have been married for 27 years … and when my dad said recently that he sometimes thought about getting a divorce, i (a 23 year old grown up) was totally crushed.
and in that moment, i KNEW — i knew he could not do it. not if he wanted to learn how to love her like Christ.
no one knows better than i how crazy she is. she is truly a nightmare to live with, and i do NOT know how he does it. but i also know that his committment to her is THE GREATEST expression to her that God loves her, and i know that my dad knows that just because she hasn’t come around in 27 years, it doesn’t mean that she never will. and regardless of that, he KNOWS he can’t give up on her.
and that makes my heart glad.
my two cents.
My extended family is going through a situation where, like you described, one person is unwell and unwilling to get help. So, I agree that things are not always black and white. But, I think my question is, why does it have to be a choice between
1. Staying together in an unhappy marriage, or
2. Getting a divorce
Why not, like Shane beautifully described, turn from the sin, bitterness, etc. and choose to make it work, and work well.
My own marriage has gone through incredibly painful, difficult times, so I am not speaking glibly. I am married to a former addict and had every reason to leave. It took much godly help, much work, much prayer, but I am so thankful I didn’t leave even when I would have been justified to do so in many people’s eyes. It was between God and me, and I knew He wanted me to stay, and He has redeemed my marriage.
I have so many thoughts on this topic that I don’t know where to begin.
As the child of divorced parents, I saw my dad be pretty much ostracized from our church because they didn’t know what to do with him. He wasn’t even the one that wanted the divorce. My mom (who initiated the divorce) was made to feel like she should wear a scarlet letter on her shirt. That said to hopefully let everyone know that I am very sympathetic to the pain of divorcees in the church as I watched both my parents lose their marriage and their church.
My husband’s parents are also divorced. So we both know first-hand how much divorce stinks from the children’s perspective. I don’t believe in staying together for the sake of the children, but I do I believe in working things out for the sake of the children.
As Christians we are called to forgive as we have been forgiven and to love our neighbor (spouse) as ourselves. After being married for 22 years, I realize that is sometimes much easier said than done. It takes a daily walk with God to forgive and love like Jesus does and I can say that I have a long way to go.
I agree that God does ok divorce in the cases of adultery and abandonment. In cases of abuse, you must protect yourself and your children even if it means separation. Separation does not always have to lead to divorce, though. It can be a tool for reconcilliation.
We were at a Thanksgiving dinner with a couple (non-Christian, btw) who had been married over 50 years. Someone asked what the secret to their marriage was and the wife answered “humility, forgiveness, and love”.
I think she has it right.
Rachel and Jessica,
I couldn’t agree more. You said what was on my heart much more eloquently than I did.
How come nobody answers my question about Prenuptial Agreement? Is this a sore subject that people avoid it like a plague?
In some denominations you are better off killing your spouse than divorcing them because you can be forgiven of murder and still minister, but if you’re divorced you can’t be a pastor.
As a lawyer, I saw my dad wrestle with this issue several times. However, a lady, who I respect a great deal, came to him one day with broken ribs. Her husband preached at our church the Sunday night before!! My dad always said he hated to do the legal work on divorces because of his faith, but when it came to abuse and life-and-death situations, he had no problem. I agree with that. I cannot see God wanting people to stay in situations where their lives are in danger.
Yonas, nobody answered your question because you didn’t ask one. You just “brought it up”.
If you want a response, mine is prenupts are for the heathen. Let your yes be yes, and your no be no. Also, Christians aren’t supposed to take one another to court, so even in the case of a divorce it should not be necessary. Lastly, the very concept of a prenupt assumes the marriage will end in divorce.
I don’t want to be negative, and I don’t mean this for all those on this thread earnestly trying to figure it out, but I have been disappointed with a number of very secular responses to this question. I mean, for some of you, I don’t care if your folks were divorced or you were divorced, I want to hear where God entered into your marriage before you or someone else ended it. And if he didn’t, why not? I have to think that too many Christians turn off their faith too often and it’s sad. We tune into Oprah when things get tough instead of cracking open the Word of God. We head to courts to settle custody instead of sitting down together and seeking God’s face.
Just writing this I feel so convicted for not seeking God more with my wife, yet I have a happy marriage. Thank God for his mercy! I wonder how much more God wants to bless us with when I cease my rebellion and truly unite with my wife spiritually.
One thing I didn’t address before is abuse. It is horrible to contemplate, but it is interesting to note that Jesus did not make an exception for abuse. Taking steps to protect yourself is a no-brainer (which means getting out of the house and staying away until the abuser repents and changes). Divorce is a tougher call, and I’ll need to think hard on that before I come to a conclusion.
Shane,
I realize that you may or may not have been referring to my comment, but just in case, I thought I’d respond.
I can’t talk any more specifically about my marriage than I have because it is my husband’s story, too. Out of respect for his privacy (he is not as comfortable discussing such things as I am) I will not share our struggles in a forum like this even though it may more specifically address the topic if I do. I think someday, down the road, God may change my husband’s heart and he will feel like sharing what God has been teaching two very flawed and finite people about marriage. But until then, I will respect his privacy.
I will say, and I think Hubby would be ok with this, that but for the grace of God, we would also probably be divorced.
@Rachel – my parents are very much in the same situation as yours and they have been married for 30 miserable years. I agree though – they are displaying God’s love for each other in the most magnificent way – they are loving each other through the insanity. To constantly forgive, to constantly be humbled, etc.
As the Bride of Christ we are ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS sinning and breaking the heart of God, slapping him in the face, and abusing him with our words –
Where would we be if he could divorce us?
In the grey areas of life, I think the law of love is what should guide us. Figuring out what the most compassionate and loving thing to do isn’t always easy, but it’s usually the thing that leads us away from fear.
I am divorced. There I said it. I am also widowed.
My husband became mentally ill (schizophrenic) about two years into our marriage. I guess I should say that his schizophrenia began to present itself about that time. He would seek treatment…and weeks later go off his meds and become delusional and threatening. He also got involved with a cult during that time.
Did I make good choices? No, I am convinced of that.
I operated out out fear, anxiety, terror. I’ve never been in a scarier place.
I filed for a divorce in order to have temporary protective orders in place that said he could only have supervised visits with the kids (then 3 and 6 months).
I used to be all black and white. I used to say I would never ever ever be divorced. Then I had babies whose protection and well-being was entrusted to me.
He died five years ago. About a year and a half after we separated. We had been talking about reconciliation, but I was still scared. I regret it, but then I think something like reconciliation takes some time. Trust doesn’t come overnight. I imagined that it would very likely be starting all over with dating if I ever felt ready. We couldn’t just pick up where we left off. Healing needed to occur. (And honestly, I couldn’t imagine that ever happening because of my fear.)
I never stopped loving him, I didn’t date, even though the temptation was there. I still have some “man fear” issues. And I still haven’t dated five years later. Maybe I will. Maybe I won’t. I’m okay single. I’m happy single. Jesus and friends and family are enough.
I am finally at a place where I can say “Sure, God hates divorce. But He sure doesn’t hate the people who are divorced.” I used to believe way down deep in my heart that He hated me for divorcing my husband. Not anymore. He loves me quite passionately.
My whole testimony is a long and drawn out affair, but you can read it here if you’re up for the challenge.
http://embracingandbeingembraced.blogspot.com/2008/06/my-testimony.html
@Shane- I thought I was pretty clear that I was asking questions, but thank you for your response.
IMO, my parents were divorced and though it wasn’t pleasant AND it really messed us up for a bit of our lives (maybe even now)… as an adult, I have to say their divorce was better for us kids than staying together.
Is it what God intended for us? No… but it’s just what happens in our world now.
Some of my divorced friends have felt snubbed by the church after a divorce… and I think THAT is sad. It’s not like anyone ever says, “Hmmm… that sounds fun – let’s have a divorce.”
It’s just a sucky situation all the way around.
Yea. If we start skewing thing the Word of God says, we might as well write our own translations.
I’m just glad God didn’t pick me to write scripture based on my experiences and feelings.
I like what Shanda said…
?Sure, God hates divorce. But He sure doesn?t hate the people who are divorced.?
AND I DON’T BELIEVE Divorced people are in any way shape or form unable to lead within the church.
That’s stupid.
Los
I do think we should consider the fact that a Christian marriage is a COVENANT between man, woman and GOD. That being said, only God can be your judge and counselor in marriage. Just because you remain married through a difficult season doesn’t validate living in denile or tolerating abuse or … I think often times we short change God’s ability to speak and move through difficult circumstances when really He is ready to jump in and show up big if we would just turn it over to Him.
I think that we live in a fallen world and stuff happens. I think it’s important to show grace and acceptance particularly in the church to those who have been through it, you never know quite what the situation was and perhaps they weren’t the party who was to blame for the marriage breakdown. I think God gives second chances to people as well and I know many divorced people who are serving him amazingly with their new spouse. I’m involved with someone who is divorced, so I certainly hope the second chance thing applies! And I should add that it’s his biggest fear to get divorced again so we have lots of great, realistic discussions about marriage too which is nice actually for me as someone who hasn’t been married before.
I love (sarcasm) the judgmental-ness of some Christian responses. I think sometimes “we” forget God’s forgiveness and that he separates us from our sin as far as the east is from the west.
I am divorced. If I had not divorced that man (who was a raging alcoholic and a controlling manipulator), I wouldn’t be married to my awesome husband. The chances of me being a Christian are few and far between (he was an avid atheist). I wouldn’t have my darling children. I would not live in Florida. I would not have a good relationship with my family (they could not stand him). I would not be involved in my church. I would not have all of the wonderful Christian friends that I have. I would not know of you, Anne.
Divorce was the beginning of some really good (and really hard) life-changing decisions for me. God has blessed me hand over fist ever since then.
He forgave me. He has blessed me beyond measure. Guess that answers the judgment off all these oh-so-devout-and-holy-rolling Christians who are sooooo full of knowledge, eh?
after posting my reference to Ortberg’s message on this topic, i watched it again.
i promise you it is WELL worth your time. go to http://www.mppc.org, click Sermons Online and scroll through to the message from 03/11/07.
he gives a reasoned, SCRIPTURAL treatment of this sensitive issue.
Hey Anne – and everyone else –
My parents are getting a divorce after being married for 31 years – I am 25 and have been married for 4 years myself. My youngest sister is 16. I think [think being the key word, which means I'm not necessarily right - how's that for a qualifier?] I think they are both being more selfish than they’ve ever been in their entire lives…though selfishness is the major reason for them being in this place at the same time.
Having said all that – I agree – divorce is and should be an option, if the circumstances call for it. It’s not that men and women can’t get divorced, it’s the ugly shredding of lives that happens when they go through the separation! I pray that my parents will mend their differences and selflessly learn to love – but I am going to love them no matter what and stand by their sides.
Why do we say divorce is such a bad thing? Because we categorize sins. Stupid, if you ask me, but pretty natural at the same time.
I agree some people act very unloving towards people who are divorced, and that is tragic given the love that God has for us and the love that he calls us to. If we spent as much energy investing in failing marriages as we do condemning the remains of dead ones, there probably wouldn’t be so many.
“Oh, that is just shameful! J and S are divorcing! Someone should have done something!”
“Why didn’t you?”
“Oh, it’s not my place… I just mind my own business…”
“So why aren’t you?”
But jfrank, I have to say, your answer to why divorce is such a bad thing completely ignores God. Divorce is a bad thing because God says it is. Not because we categorize sins. God hates divorce. We should hate it too – so much that we should each be taking personal responsibility for encouraging every married couple in our lives. We should take this hatred for sin (not sinner) and let it drive us to protect, uplift, and build marriages everywhere we can, so they don’t happen.
I am going to have to stop coming back to this thread. It is frustrating me too much to see otherwise Godly men and women softpedal divorce because it’s too much work to save marriages. This spirit of “just let ‘em die, they’re going to anyway” is disheartening.
My parents divorced when I was about 18 months old so I don’t remember them together. They were pretty good at the whole co-parenting thing (even thought they didn’t even know that’s what they were doing – their divorce was long before than term was coined). Anyway, I wouldn’t trade their divorce for anything – my dad remarried when I was 5 and then they had a brother. My mom found the perfect man for her and remarried when I was 16 then they had my sister. I wouldn’t trade my brother and sister for my birth-parents being married and miserable for anything.
So, God hates divorce.
And lying.
And idolatry.
And greed.
And gluttony.
And [insert comprehensive list of sins here].
I am more moved by the grace of God than any other of His characteristics.
Shane, thank you for directing our attention to what’s really important here:
“we should each be taking personal responsibility for encouraging every married couple in our lives.”
Whether we forgive or condemn others’ divorces is utterly irrelevant. It’s God’s call, not ours. Whether or not we facilitate those divorces — by standing idle instead of helping an alcoholic, addict, or abuser get help, by listening to a spouse vent frustrations without helping him or her find solutions, by failing to help abuse victims find safe shelter, by dating or getting too emotionally intimate with a married person, or by failing to invite those who have never witnessed a great marriage into our lives if we have created one — matters.
anne – my husband asked for a divorce on monday. we have been married almost 3 years. i am crushed right now, but have been praying for some time that God would either heal my marriage or provide me with a way out. He doesn’t always answer prayer in the way we want, but I have to know that this is what is supposed to happen. God has called me to a life of service for Him and my husband was an anchor holding me back (he is not a christian). divorce sucks. i have never in my life hurt like i hurt right now. i DO think that God hates divorce, but He also does not intend on us living a life of misery. God’s grace is amazing though. He can take something so ugly and turn it into something beautiful. I know I will be a stronger woman on the other side of this.
Lacey – You will be stronger. This same thing happened to me five years ago (I can’t even believe it’s been that long) the day after Mother’s Day. Since that moment, God has taken what was broken in me and filled in the cracks with his grace and mercy that’s not only kept me going but has brought me to a place of restoration and adventure in life, relationships, and (yes it can be so) ministry.
Divorce does suck. Life afterwards won’t always;)
What’s the deal with you picking such sweet, simple topics!!!! :)
My best friend and senior pastor of a church we planted together got divorced over a year ago… and honestly I was one that was all about “no” to divorce regardless… Though I still feel strongly about it… I’m thinking like you are thinking… it is black and white… and it isn’t! I know this friend of mine did everything he could to keep his marriage together, she was abusive and at times, completely out of control… it was truly affecting the kids in a real bad way. I could not but support him in his decision to divorce.
Some things come to mind though… does God condone divorce? Does He bring 2 people together knowing they were “not made for each other”..? The Book of Hosea comes to mind…
Why are so many marriages (especially Christian ones) ending in divorce? Abuse is the word that is thrown around… What do we constitute as abuse? I’ve heard way too many instances where one accuses the other of abuse… but is it really? (The Book of Hosea comes to mind again!)
Incompatability is another one… but the response to that is get over yourself… really… (the whole verse “die to yourself” applies to what!!!?? Is not marriage a reflection of our own relationship with God?). You’ve made a commitment, not just to each other but to God. You have no choice but to work it out.
Sorry, don’t want to be preaching it… I’m definitely not for divorce… but beyond a doubt, there are times when the black and white needs to be put aside and compassion and understanding must prevail.
Lacey, a friend of mine went through a similar thing to you three years ago with her non-Christian husband. Its been amazing in this time to see how God has worked in her life and reassured her that He is with her and taking care of things (they had two small children). Stand strong and pray (I’m sure you’re not giving up on this easy anyway) but trust God too and learn to not listen to those who judge. I pray that this is the beginning of you finding your calling in ministry.
some people just need divorcing, that’s all.
Yeah…. Hmm… I have a lot of feelings about divorce recently. My parents divorce was finally final yesterday. And in a lot of respects, I have reverted back to a teenager in dealing with it. I wrote about it on my blog, http://www.shalomexistence.com. But if you don’t want to read it, just know it sucks. It sucks even worse when your father is a pastor and people yourself included, expect a lot more from him. The rumors and hateful talk have been endless. Isn’t that worse than divorce itself? Idk, but it is a hard hard thing.
Lacey- I’m praying for you. I know it sucks.
Divorce sucks. It makes my heart hurt when my friends have gone through marital difficulties and/or divorce. I don’t think WE can ever decide that divorce is universally wrong, though. In my marriage, divorce would never be right but I don’t have an alcoholic husband or an abusive husband or anything like that. I do think that in our society it is so socially acceptable now to get divorced that people use it as way to give up too easily, to change their minds, and so on. But if you’re the one married to the one who changed their mind, what do you do? You can’t FORCE someone to be married to you.
The cases where people say if they didn’t get a divorce they would never have the wonderful children/spouse/life they have now, are examples of God’s ability to work all things for good – even divorce.
Thank you for seeing the pain of people in divorce, in unhealthy marriages, and having the heart to see more than just the ‘shoulds’ …..to see the pain and care for the one(s) hurting. Jesus would do such a thing. Like his encounter with the woman at the well. It was not in judgment, but in love that he acknowledged her pain of broken relationships, and offered healing and a future. We can be in this same spirit. Hope to the hurting, love for the one with a crushed heart.
Yeah…this is kinda a crazy conversation to have. I agree that it is one that needs to happen and that Christians need not to hide. I also agree with the remarriage thing. That we need to know what the scriptures say, and follow it. So many times I think that believers think that they can do whatever they want and ask for forgiveness later without consequence. For me, I think that people need to seek accountability and mentorship. Marriage was not intended to be a solo project. We are not (I believe) to be in this journey alone. It is the hardest thing I have ever done, so why in the world would I think I could figure it out all by myself? Seriously? Dang. My husband rocks, but sometimes I need outside guidance to help us along.
Divorce not only rips people apart, destroys families and ultimately saddens God. Divorce also lets Satan win the battle. True, lots of people are letting Satan win battles within their marriages, too, but by the grace of God they can be overcome and wounds can be healed. Divorce is rejecting God’s ability and desire to heal. God hates divorce.
Yonas, if you feel the need for a prenup, then don’t get married. There are worse outcomes in your marriage ending in divorce than losing half your family’s fortune. Maybe if we focused more on what Satan is trying to steal from us, we’d worry less about what a bitter spouse might want to take away in revenge.
“For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.” ~Eph. 6:12
This is for Shane — PUH-LEASE with your rhetoric. Your black and white opinion on this, in my opinion anyway, is baloney.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that you also think that the sanctity of marriage applies only when said marriage occurs between a man and a woman. So let me throw this hypothetical at you, based on my assumption.
Two men marry (SINNERS, you are probably thinking…) One cheats on the other, and after a year of trying to salvage the marriage, they opt for divorce.
Would you be for this divorce Shane, given the presumed opinion I think you have of homosexuality, or would you be against it, based on your loudly stated stance that divorce is never, NEVER, an option?
close-minded much? Judgemental at all? Holy jumpers,
I laugh at your ‘frustration’ at those on this board (and by extension, elsewhere in the world), who aren’t so close-minded as to think that every problem should be addressed only by what the Bible says. Puh-lease. So let me put this question to you: what if two men or women marry
let me guess… you probably also think that homosexuality is the devil’s doing. I wouldn’t doubt it, based simply on yo
Thanks Anne for your answer. I guess witnessing a lot of divorces and people’s infidelity (Christian or not), just really makes me think about prenup quite a bit. My family definitely is not immune as this almost happened to us recently (brother).
We actually bought a house many years ago (but lived there only about couple years), found out later on that the couple had to sell the house due to a divorce…the divorce was barely finalized and the wife (who committed the infidelity) came with her truck WITH the picture of her and her bf on the dashboard. By golly that ain’t gonna happen to me.
Maybe I’ve seen too much within the past 10 years.
Forgot to add: but definitely I see your point Anne, if we married the ‘right’ person, maybe prenup isn’t necessary at all.
Just to clarify – the “ann” up there is not me – she’s another ann – without the “e” :)
Anne – you asked, “for instance, why is divorce any worse than a married couple living a complete lie”?
I sorta tried to address that in my reply above, but I shoulda just come out and said it instead of trying to be cute.
Is divorce worse than living a lie? No, it’s not.
“Oh, but divorce hurts the kids more; people should stay together for the kids.”
Trash. Dysfunctional families (where mom and dad can’t stand each other, but keep up appearances) hurt kids just as much. Maybe more, since it teaches them that dysfunction (whilst keeping up appearances) is the way to go.
So, am I a raving “pro-divorce” fanatic? Nope. I think we should mean it when we make a promise to someone at the altar. But… we are humans, and life happens, and divorce happens.
IMHO, Christians who frown on divorce regardless of circumstance do so as a means of feeling better about themselves.
[end rant]
Oops yeah Anne I knew that :)
I’ve waited to post for various reasons but feel I have now gathered myself for a better response.
My parents were not the best at always showing me a loving example of hubby & wife. And my mom divorced by dad after 35 yrs of marriage because she felt she was living a lie and not happy.
I am currently going through my 2nd divorce. First divorce came after my musician husband cleared out my bank account for the 3rd time 9 months into the marriage and split. I was in my mid-20′s.
Second divorce came when my husband chose to divorce me instead of getting help for his addictions and anger mgt issues. I told him I would stay married but he had to get help b/c he started to abuse our kids, not just me. He filed the next wk.
Here’s what I’ve learned from these 3 experiences.
Love is a choice. It is not a feeling b/c our feelings can be flawed, erratic & misleading (grass is greener scenario). Just like forgiveness is a choice, it can be a hard one to make, and we may need help doing it; we can choose to love someone regardless of how they behave or treat us at times. I applied this logic a lot in my 2nd marriage b/c my husband was very mentally, emotionally & verbally abusive from the moment we said I do. (Dated 4ys, Married 6yrs) But the abuse was also erratic. It would come in waves and phases, but progressively got worse and more frequent after we had kids. I felt like I wanted to get divorced many times in the last 6 years but I had to know that I had given it my all, my everything. Even if it meant I would not be happy for a long time. I also had to accept that if we got divorced (which he threatened every 6 mo) that I could be alone (sans male romantic relationship/marriage) for the rest of my life if that was what God had planned for me. That’s a tough place to get b/c sometimes bad feels like it would be better than being alone.
If I did not have kids, I doubt we would be divorced. The abuse you take as an adult is always more than what you can see your children suffer. This was what drew the line for me. And even then I just requested a separation, not a divorce. But he didn’t want to give up his addictions (alcohol & pot (i found out later)) or address whatever was making him so angry and bitter in this life.
Even knowing raising my kids alone would be hard and they would miss their father, I knew they would be in a better place with me alone than us together. A favorite Dr Phil quote, Kids would rather be from a broken home than live in one. It was hard to come to grips with that, but it is true. My kids opened up and began to shine again after we moved out of the house w/ my husband. Before they had started shrinking and becoming overly clingy one minute or emotionally explosive or dispondent the next.
I think that it’s a lot of hard work up front to choose the right person and it’s a lot of hard work throughout the marriage to make the right choices to help your marriage grow healthy and beautifully throughout the years. It’s the little things and the big things that make such a huge difference. But there are certainly times and situations that will not allow it to happen. God only knows what’s in someone’s heart and will be the only one deciding whether or not the choice of divorce was justifiable. I dont think we have the right or the knowledge or power to make that call.
Les McFall has an interesting way to deal with the exception clause in Matthew 19:9. He has written a 43 page paper that reviews the changes in the Greek made by Erasmus that effect the way Matthew 19:9 has been translated. I reviewed McFall’s paper at Except For Fornication Clause of Matthew 19:9. I would love to hear some feedback on this position.
I have a real problem with this post.
Our church youth group studied this topic this year and I learned quite a lot about divorce.
I don’t know a lot about wedding vows and all that stuff, I’m not married yet, but I do know that when whoever wrote the famous words “to have and to hold…for better or for worse…in sickness and in health…til death do us part.” actually meant that the marriage would last for as long as the spouse did. Many times, people just see marriage as something that they will take part in “until I’m tired of this person”. And it makes me sad, because marriage is a picture of what God has done with us, taken us as His bride, never to separate, to become one for all of eternity.
God absolutely hates all divorce, legal or not. “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. What therefore God has joined together; let not man seperate.’” Matthew 19: 5-6
God’s intention for marriage was to become one. Though He hates sin, He allows divorce if there is sexual immorality. This sexual immorality being marital unfaithfulness.
When the question came up about abuse in marriage, I searched and searched for something that said the husband or wife was allowed to divorce. However, there is nothing in scripture that says so. I am saddened by this, but I know it is God”s will and that He has a purpose and a plan. I don’t think it is wise for a person to stay with an abusive spouse, but don’t get divorced, separate
Now I’m not saying that separation should just be a cop out. Try to make your marriage relationship work. Go to counseling, pray together, seek God in His Word together.God should be the center of every relationship. And when He is pushed to the side, the relationship begins to fail.
Anne,
I became aware of this website through the 2008 SAGE ministries magazine. You had written an article about forgiveness. I was inspired by this article in March, and today I re-read it. I was again inspired and decided to visit your website. I was looking to know more about you and see what kind of woman of God you are. I have been disappointed. I have read only 3-4 of your posts and see that you are encouraging divorce, underage drinking, and the use of drugs to get through Christmas. While I have much to say about this, I will not. I hope that you begin to search God’s word, and seek Him, and ask HIm to teach you. If you would like to know why I am so disappointed in you, feel free to email me. I am praying for you.
Anne-
My wife and I have an interesting perspective on this issue. We were married to each other in January of ’92 and had 4 wonderful children. Unfortunately we divorced in December of ’02. She remarried in December of ’04 to a guy who suffered from chronic depression and he left in June of ’06 and they divorced. We were gloriously remarried in October of last year and have seen God do such a redemptive work in both of us.
We both have ministry backgrounds and neither of us EVER thought we would taste divorce and definitely not to this degree. God is beginning to use our story to give hope to others.
Was browsing a few of your “categories” and came across this post. First, let me say divorce is an absolutely hellish nightmare. I know; I’ve been through one. If anyone can realistically avoid it, they certainly should – but not by kidding themselves or making light of their situation. The straightforward way you faced your own problems and worked to heal them is rare and admirable. You had courage!
But I wondered if anyone had commented on the surprising Scripture in 1 Corinthians 7: 12-17. So I read everyone’s comments. No one had, though the friend John Ireland mentions could have – our internet connection here isn’t good enough to find out.
In that passage St. Paul says that, if either a husband or wife is a Christian and the other is not, and if the nonChristian wants a divorce for no other reason than that, it’s permitted. Paul may have only been answering a question someone asked him about that specific issue. But I personally have no doubt that if he thought conflecting religous beliefs were a valid ground for divorce, he’d have considered abuse much more so. It’s worth reading, especially in any good modern language translation.
I’ve NEVER heard a pastor or teacher mention this passage. It’s one of several “forgotten” Scriptures my family’s stumbled over during our Bible readings in recent years. (A couple others, not on divorce, which NO minister has ever mentioned in my hearing, are Deuteronomy 14:28-29 and 26:13-14, which teach that part of our tithe is supposed to be used to help the poor, like orphans, widows, and immigrants. Back then that meant all of the tithe every three years. Today, given the differences in our society and economy – especially all the monthly payments both the church and the poor have these days – I suspect Moses would probably now say “give a third of EVERY tithe.”)
OK, that second reference in Deuteronomy should have been 26: 12-19. Sorry for the typo. My fingers do that quite often (as you’ve likely noticed).
Your question of whether divorce would be okay if the two were living a complete lie, or living in resentment…..I ask the question do 2 wrongs make a right? The answer to one sin isn’t another sin, but that’s how it often happens. We sin, then lie about it. We sin and are prideful about our behavior…”don’t we deserve better/more?” Well thank God we don’t get what we deserve as sinners, but instead that God has the mercy to offer and grace to save us from what we deserve.