thanks for all your thoughts & prayers. i am in my layover and KCI and enjoying a very slow but free wifi connection. i thought i’d take this chance to start a discussion on here. i hope you’ll participate.
our teaching pastor, wes hamilton, let me borrow a book by chuck colson called “being the body.” if you have even the smallest bit of your heart that you love the church with, i strongly recommend you getting this book. it is almost 500 pages long and a very deep read, but it has been one of the most intriguing books i’ve tackled in a while (I’m only on page 130 287).
i have been taking notes throughout, and thought i’d post a little bit about what i’m learning and hopefully open up some discussion. the first part of the book is about how the current church is in the midst of an identity crisis. here are some bullet points i took out that i’d love for you to think about and discuss.
Misconceptions of the Church/Identity Crisis
-The Church is a building
- The word church is from the Greek word Ekklesia, which means gathering of people. It really was used more in a political sense in the New Testament times but believers began using it to describe their gatherings
- Instead of an abundance of “go and tell” it has become “come and see”
-The Church goer is a consumer
- What’s in it for me?
- Go where you “feel” good – where you feel “led”
- Many churches aim to provide support over salvation
- Help…over holiness
- And convey the sense of “spiritual equality” and not God-ordained authority
- Many churches also unintentionally encourage spectators instead of participators
- People are invited to “discover themselves” in churches — and self realization and God realization are diametrically opposed
- Consumerism works against the unity of the universal Church. You know you have heard conversations about people church hopping because of better programs, and I know it may not be the heart of any particular church to “steal” these people away, but let’s not be stupid here. It happens. And unity is the single greatest evangelical tool the church has — It shows that Jesus is who he claimed to be.
-Ending Thoughts
It’s no surprise people who aren’t religious or don’t go to church don’t understand its identity and mission. In fact, I am sitting in front of several ladies who are talking about the fact they have no clue about anything religious (They also think Kwanzaa is an Asian holiday). But when Christians don’t know what the church is…it’s a CRISIS.
your thoughts?
(next topic: fellowship)
word.
a people not a place
a people not a place
a people not a place
(i have to say that over and over during my office hours)
#2 Instead of an abundance of “go and tell” it has become “come and see”
Hmmmmm…
Here’s praying for enjoyable travels and divine comfort for the whole family.
I love the new look, too.
i totally agree…
working at a music store i see how much money churches spend on lights and music equipment…(one church recently spent close to $100,000 on lights alone)
anyway
the good thing about starting a church is you can start with these principles from the beginning…the problem is…people still come in thinking church should be a certain way and when your service is nothing flashy (non-flashy by choice)…they think it’s not as “cool”
i really want to write more…but i’ll hold off…great thoughts though…
no, no, please discuss. write more!
an interesting part i read last night was about the call of a pastor and ordained (by god) leader of a local church. it was actually scary (in a fear of god, watch yourself kind of way).
Greetings from Portland, OR.
Great thoughts in this post, Anne! This is something that I struggle with constantly…by observing othes and (sadly and honestly) occassionally within myself. I violently oppose the idea of a consumerism sort of church, but every once in a while I find myself having similar thoughts. I hate that!
“Many churches aim to provide support over salvation”…that is something that I’m definately going to ponder for a bit. I think it’s true, and more common than we (the body) would like to admit.
Nothing revolutionary in this comment, just thought I would weigh in on this chilly Monday morning. Thanks for the post!
you know how much this resonates with me. i just can’t shake the idea that the current state of the ‘local church,’ while certainly not always a ‘bad’ thing, is quite some distance removed from the kingdom ideal Jesus came to invite us into. (ok, that’s a really bad sentence, but the thought is there, right?)
i don’t know what that means for us – how we ‘fix’ it or what we are to do … i just know it makes me think, pray, seek …..
Grant:
I have no problem with a church spending money on lights and sound if the goal is to reach people for Christ.
I admit I am slightly biased here, since I work on the media team of Lake Pointe. But, whatever my job is, I have a problem with assuming that churches buy lights and sound equipment just to have flashy services and ‘be cool.’
The language of media is the language people speak today. Forget being “seeker-friendly”; these days Christians speak this language too. Our mission at Lake Pointe is to reach people for Christ; we’ve found that we can do that by utilizing lights, sound, music, video, and graphics.
60 years ago, Christians eschewed the TV industry. The Christians who didn’t understand how TV could be used to reach people for Christ worked hard to convince the body that it was the Devil’s Box. Because of that faux pas at the beginning, Christians still haven’t really figured out how to use TV to convey the message of the Gospel. From the very beginning we left that form of communication to the world, and decided to just keep using the forms of communication we’d been using. I don’t want that to happen to modern forms of media.
I wrote about this a few posts back on my own blog.
Jordan…
I totally understand what you’re saying…I guess I just hear of and see people spending money on lights, sound, video, etc. before giving to missions, feeding the poor, taking care of the widows, and even taking care of people in their own community at the church…
I don’t think the problem is always the church’s methodology…
I feel like some churches have become a business…and how good your “business” is relates to how many people and programs you have…and the way to grow your business…is appeal to the consumer…and that cycle becomes the church’s whole purpose…
So the methodology of that church may look the same as another…but their purposes could be totally different…
As a CHURCH we have to make sure we are teaching correct theology and not doing something that could get in the way of the gospel…there will be a thousand different ways this will be done…but we need to make sure a technique or method never becomes the purpose…
Going back to methodology…I know I said the problem isn’t always methodology…but I feel an important question for a church to ask is “does our methodology express our theology?”…
(I deal with this question daily)
I will admit, I was a “hopper”, but it was more for where I felt loved. (See how much I’m saying “I”?)
Sometimes it seems that we as people need to feel something before we can come in and just let go of our selves for a little while. I have a hard time just worshipping during that portion of the day. It makes me uncomfortable to show people that I am vunerable. Sometimes I’ll let go, raise my hands and just worship Him throughout a song or two. (Of course I’m a schooled drummer and I can be very judgemental on what I’m hearing from the stage.)
Olive Branch isn’t near as flashy as Crossroads and the worship isn’t as “slick”, which is one of the things I immediately missed in moving to Olive Branch. On the flip side, the message that was brought was moving. Ike Riddle lived every word he spoke. Beaten up with fibrobyalgia, he still got up and brought it to us.
Now we have this 28 year old man that brings it…..differently….but brings it none-the-less. He speaks like me which is something I’m not used to hearing from my pastor. One has to get over how church is “supposed to be” and make it different……we need to figure out what it is that is going to move us from our pew and into the street meeting our neighbors’ immediate needs and showing them God’s Love. That’s what we’re learnging right now…it’s what I’ve been hearing from all the church podcasts I listen to as well as the books I’ve been picking up.
Thanks for such an interesting and discussable topic.
I’ve had the blessing/privilege of seeing the American church from the outside, having lived in France for nearly three years. The thing that really stands out to me is consumerism. It’s so deeply rooted in our culture that we can’t see its influence in the church as bad. Since when is consuming akin to following Jesus?
Oh my gosh Anne, I started a “comment” half an hour ago and it turned into a dissertation so I was too chicken to post it. Too much blah, blah, blah.
Truth is, I’ve been neck deep involved in church stuff for years and the last five or so have been a total shift for me. I kind of felt the Corporation style church with its theatrics was missing it a little but didn’t know what that was. I feel like I’m constantly learning new things about how to “do” church and I’m pumped about it. The freeing thing for me is the God factor. Ok, I know that sounds frighteningly obvious but really, not everyone is looking at that. Where is God working? How can we be a part of that? What is He giving us in order to do that work-people, tangible resources, location/local culture, identified needs. Is that oversimplifying?
Yeah this comment is much better than my first attempt. And yeah, still long. Sorry. Hope you’re traveling well.
I do think we are in a crisis. When I first realized it, I was shocked and became depressed and bitter. I hated going to Church because it was all a big production. My wife made me snap out of it.
Hey Anne. Great conversation starter here. A crucial issue, to be sure.
I’ve worked in the church financing industry for about 9 years now. As such, I’ve had the opportunity to look over hundreds (thousands?) of churches of all shapes and sizes from all over America. Everything from a 100 member church in NYC who needed $200,000 to fix up their building up to a $40 and $50 million dollar building projects for huge, huge places.
One can tell a whole lot about a church by examining their financial statements and their programs…
So… to some degree… I think I have been over-exposed to the consumer nature of church in America, and as a result, am somewhat cynical about it. I’m probably responsible for enabling it to some degree.
I feel good about the little loan for the church in NYC who just wants to clean the building up. They don’t want to be a huge church – they want to get to about 150, then go 5 blocks over and start another church.
The huge deals? They just feel like business to me.
All I know is that the dude in your banner is really pretty.
After proof reading my dissertation you have an honorary doctorate in ecclesiology!
I read Chuck Colson’s book a few years ago, maybe I should dig it out again, if you are interested in this kind of stuff about the nature of the church pick up some of Alan Hirsch’s books
THE SHAPING OF THINGS TO COME
THE FORGOTTEN WAYS
As Erwin once commented, the real tragedy is not that churches are dying but they have lost their reason to live.
ps was that your former employer that hit the headlines in Kansas last week?
Another interresting contribution to the discussion:
The Shaping of Things to Come by Alan Hirsch. He spoke at our staff conference in Amsterdam last year. Very interesting stuff. He has a new book out now called The Forgotten Ways.
I wrote about this a while back on my blog.
http://thewardrobeandthewhitetree.blogspot.com/2006/03/why-do-you-go-to-church.html
So here are some thoughts based on your comments…where (is there) a balance between consumerism in the church and simply meeting needs?
The problem that I continue to run into and see on a daily basis is… that playing “church” is cool to most young adults in the Bible belt. It’s cool, until is requires anything out of that person. Any element of sacrifice or lifestyle change immediately turns people off. It seems like everyone wants the consumer benefits of church, but no one is willing to give their life, die to themselves, and follow what Christ truly died for. Many of us in the church today are living the consumer lifestyle of “what can the church offer me?” The moment it becomes personal, the moment we have to give up something we think we value…we are out, and it’s back to the sidelines until the next time comes for us to think that we want more out of the Christian life.
i think that alot of us come to church with the wrong attitude, in the first place. we come to church thinking, “what will i get out of it? what will the pastor say to make me feel better? what will my kids get out of it?” church IS NOT ABOUT ME!
this is (to me) a revolutionary thought that blows my mind. i’ve gone to church my entire life (literally). it was always about that. i go to church to show God he’s important to me. i go to church to grow. i go to church to help. i go to church so i don’t feel guilty. (notice i, i, i, i.)
but, CHURCH IS NOT ABOUT ME. it’s about God, it’s about jesus, it’s about telling other people the life changing, earth shattering news that they can be free because jesus died for them and rose again. the minute i became a christian (sorry, christ-follower–the cool people in our church don’t use the word “christian” any more) my life (should have become) became about other people. not how good my church is at entertaining me.
and, church should not be taking place on sunday morning (or saturday night). that’s not real church. that’s fun, happy, feel good, see my friends time. church is when i help my neighbor, donate food to the local food pantry. church is when i love the unloveable, put my money where my mouth is (so to speak), and in general live out my faith in a tangible way. (too bad i don’t go to church more often.)
lights or no lights, flash or no flash, consumerism, capitalism, facism, hippie communes. what ever. the real church lives in your house, wears your clothes and invites your neighbors to share a meal in the name of christ.
I’m with Juli.