I write this post from my newly borrowed 17″ PowerBook. I can honestly say, even on the days I feel fat and bloated (like today), this laptop makes me feel skinny again, as it hangs over a couple of inches on both sides while resting upon my lap.
Lately, it seems as if a frequented discussion in our circle of friends here has been the woman’s role in the church…should they be “over” things, or leading things, or teaching men or insert any vague & biblically unanswerable question to your liking here.
My personal and current belief (as my I am young enough to not have established many solid beliefs, but old enough to know the ones I have established could possibly change) is that if God has gifted you in leadership, you’re going to lead, whether you hold the vocational or volunteer role of leader or not. Jesus speaks incredibly highly of women and it’s obvious women were used all throughout history to play roles men couldn’t have played.
In today’s American church culture, we place such an emphasis on titles, that if a woman doesn’t hold a leadership title, sometimes people get upset because a man who is in a lateral role does get that title, and the American benefits that come with it (pay, notarity, and an office with a window).
Honestly, why should we even care? God is the one gifting you. God is the one directing where you serve. Pastor/Shepherd is by far the strongest “gift” in my gift mix, so does that mean God screwed up by making me a woman? Hardly. I will probably never serve as a pastor of some church (and really, that’s okay with me, I don’t think I should), but he will place people in my life that I can care for by using the gifts He’s given me.
All this to say, I think when people get upset about a woman not being able to go “as far” as a man can go in the church (on staff, or in leadership), it’s terribly ironic. We think the church is limiting what a woman can do; when in fact, we are limiting what women can do by placing it in the context of titles and not the global church.
Your thoughts?
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nice way of stealing my often discussed-about topic… hopefully you will actually get comments.
I will take a risk and chime in…
I AGREE wholeheartedly that women are gifted with leadership and other things just as men are, in fact this is biblical thinking. (Niether Jew nor Greek, male or female…)
In fact, one friend of mine used to remind us that children do not receive half of the Holy Spirit just because they are young or small. God can and does use all of “person”-kind. So, women would certainly be equal in God’s eyes and should be in our eyes as well in every way.
The only argument left for me is that idea of roles. My wife is far better and more gifted than I, yet I still have the “headship” of the home, as far as I believe. The only office in the Bible that ever is exclusive to men other than being the husband, at least at its reads, is that of “elder” or “overseer” of a local church. The word pastor is not even a biblical word, so a woman as pastor is cool as far as I am concerned. A woman teaching is cool by me, too. It is just that all of us submit under this role of the elder, if these are functioning as the Bible describes. And, there is never just one of these guys, they are a group since guys get a big head on their own and need others to keep balance.
So, a woman can aspire to influence and lead and teach…but, this is not a title or would not be for a man either. This is simply a desire to express gifts, call and passion. GO FOR IT.
To all titles I am agnostic but I do worry about women being denied their equal place in the church
Ugh. so sticky.
I’ll add a wrench, I guess. It’s the one that turns the bolt for me most often.
I believe that although gifts can be the same, authority flows down placing men at the top.
I rest in this. I find comfort and protection in it. I can “submit” with a great attitude because they take the fall if they are wrong! I don’t have to worry about “rightness” to some issues because I am doing what God asked me to do…follow, support, and serve (not stirring up trouble wondering why God didn’t call me instead as I’m equally gifted [Miriam re: Moses].
I defer to men in a room in teaching…and honestly, most I know also would defer to or support or gently teach me so that the flow is not recognizable. But, I am not comfortable above a man in teaching. I rest in what has been taught to me as “divine order”. I’ve found so much peace and order in the flow of it that I just don’t have a reason to question it at this point in time.
We were made as suitable helpers to man. I rest/rejoice/find satisfaction and fulfillment in the role of helper, still using my gifts in a supported, checked way (which I also find to be an awesome umbrella for me).
Sometimes, someone has to make the final call. It’s not about who is most gifted or most right…often it’s about where we feel the authority is (or if there is chaos, is misplaced causing chaos).
???
Can I suggest that to hear a different perspective on the biblical material the person above have a look at Brian Russell, an OT scholar, thoughts in Gen 3
http://realmealministries.org/WordPress/index.php?s=Women&Submit=Search
and Ken Schenk an NT scholar
http://kenschenck.com/wrongonwomen.html
http://kenschenck.com/womenpassages.html
When I first became a Christian I assumed women couldn’t be involved in teaching, as a pastor, etc. Basically only “liberals” thought any different, and that label in Christian circles is right up there with “murderer”–well, you get the idea. So I didn’t explore this biblically for a about five years.
But here’s what I found. 1 Tim 2 is the only passage that is explicit on this issue. It says that women can’t (1) teach (2) have authority over men and (3) must be silent in the church.
Here’s what I also found. In 1 Corinthians 12:28 there’s what appears to be an authority pecking order in the church. It starts with apostles, then prophets, then teachers and so on.
Bear with me, I’m going somewhere with this…
In Romans 16:7 it refers to a female apostle Junias. Some (many others like me disagree) say this isn’t really speaking of her as an apostle, so I’ll add something else. Acts 21:9 mentions Philip’s four daughters who prophesied.
So putting this all together, 1 Tim 2 says that women can’t do three things: teach, have authority over men, and must be silent in the church.
Yet the role of apostle was the most authoritative role in the early church, even more than that of a pastor. So if a woman could be an apostle, surely she could be a pastor. For those who disagree with Rom 16:7, prophets were the second most authoritative role in the early church. Philip’s four daughters had an authoritative role in the church, prophecy involves teaching, and it’s pretty tough to do if you’re silent–contradicting all three of 1 Tim 2’s prohibitions.
So we’re either left with a contradiction between 1 Tim 2 and other passages in the NT or something else.
Personally I believe from the context of 1 Tim 2 that there were women who were problematic and Paul was telling Timothy the women at his church in particular couldn’t do those things. But as we see from other passages, women were in every role blokes were.
Sorry for the long comment Anne! This has been on my heart and mind a lot lately for personal reasons.
Authority is so misunderstood, folks. The issue is stewardship of God’s authority. Men do not own an entitlement to this. Remember, that God is the authority. He is God. Men and women represent God’s authority, but in different ways. The Holy Spirit is not over the Father, for instance, but is still part of the God-head, ect.
Couldn’t agree more that authority is misunderstood, and that it is about stewardship of God’s authority. But this is really about who has the privilege of being stewards of God’s authority–men only? Or women too?
i agree with both Rich and John – that tied up in gifting and faith is stewardship of God’s authority – not any sort of intrinsic authority that a man or a woman necessarily has from birth. Authority comes to God’s people as the Spirit provides them regeneration, allows them to walk in right relationship with God, and enables them to experience and act out his righteousness and appearance as an embodiment of his full truth. Our authority comes about as we are drawn closer to the only Authority – and therefore our stewardship of His authority is us acting out the gospel message – ultimately as Christ’s church sent and empowered by the Spirit to bring about the completion of his purposes on earth.
i personally think “entitlement” and “privilege” might be my point of divergence on this issue. my conviction is that we can merit nothing – that the role of gifting is to more highly exalt our God as a “gifting God” and a God who provides for his people so that ultimately he is glorified through the upbuilding of his church. i believe it is clear from the 1 Corinthians text that gifting comes according to its function and purpose in furthering the local gathering’s Kingdom purpose – not according to the extent of merit a person holds intrinsically (whether they be male or female). In this way I believe that God gifts all believers according to what will best serve his purposes in bringing about renewal and redemption to its fullness at his second coming.
So, from the texts like 1 Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4 it can be said that God does not discriminate in terms of sex when it comes to the gifts he provides to the church.
Since as Christians we seek a canonical understanding of these issues, we must seek a biblical hermeneutic and deal with all texts justly. Alas, it is time for me to go join my local gathering downtown so I can’t write any more. You guys can handle 1 Timothy.
Just wanted to get a short word in on this.
p.s. of course, one way to avoid this whole issue is to say Paul is not actually the author of the 1 Timothy and therefore conclude these texts have no authority in deciding ecclesiological issues. What a way out!
I have brought the “Sunday Morning” message by invitation from my Pastor with the full blessing of the Elders in our church. My pastor and I just had a brief discussion where he is praying thatI would take this role on more often. (I’m not on staff, I am not titled, neither am I paid. I couldn’t care any less.) I’m prayerfully chewing on this idea so this is a timely post for me Anne. Being the daughter of a Baptist pastor, I have/am wrestling with this. I host a group of women on Thursday nights where I speak/teach regularly. On more than one occasion, men have requested that I open this up to them when they see a topic they would like to study. I see the spiritual results of my teaching gift in both men and women which led me to ask “who am I to put it under a bushel then”? My answer to this question is that I don’t promote myself or request the opportunnity to address our congregation but when the invitation comes, I believe that the opportunity is of God. The encouraging part? The men asking when I’m going to speak again. They see no gender only Truth of the Word.
May I also thank those who left the references and opinions above. It may have been in response to Anne’s post but I’m sure it was just for me in my own prayerful contemplation of the opportunities that lie before me; and may I add that I am so blessed and grateful for my Pastor and leadership team. Let’s all keep teaching, challenging, expanding, growing each other for His glory.
In the stream of churces I’m a part of, the description you have of womens’ roles in paragraph two fits best. But as a pastor that depends on volunteers, the first one’s to step up to the plate are always, always, always women. You can depend on them to be there, be creative, be smart, and be productive. There is no stopping female leadership. They see the need and meet it.
To my chagrin, guys are worried more about theological debates and discussions about who’s role is who’s that the job takes forever to get done.
And guys wonder why they can’t get a date!
Good thoughts. I’ve copied some of them to a file to dig through sometime when I have think tank time. Thanks Petticrew for resource.
anybody ever read Spiritual Authority by Watchmen Nee? Thoughts?
I was supposed to go to Mosaic tonight with some friends, but when they found out that a woman was speaking (Eileen Liu, the pastor of children ministries), they not only refused to go, but they refused to being a non-believer who wanted to go. That ticked me off sooooooo bad…
It also made me wonder what role I might be able to have in their church since my gift is one of teaching…
Growl.
OK, I know this is in response to an old post. The topic is fairly dear to my heart, so…
With God’s creation intent (early Genesis) as my starting point, I wholeheartedly believe that Spirit-equipped women are fully capable of serving in every capacity within the Church.
My wife serves as a campus pastor and has just recently begun the process of ordination.
Don’t abandon the possibility of serving as a pastor too soon, Anne…:)
Oh, yeah…Joy and I are egalitarian in our approach to marriage. Again, see early Genesis (that is, pre-fall) and the correct intent of ezer kenegdo…